Marriage customs

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Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 06 Apr 2009, 09:21

My great-grandfather, (Angelo) Carmine Petraglia was born in Quadrelle, Avellino on December 17, 1864, married first Gelsomina Montuori and had three children in Quadrelle. Carmine immigrated to the US March 23, 1895, and Gelsomina with two children (the third one had died) later. They went through Ellis Island and at the time of the 1900 census are all living in Sunderland, Vermont. Gelsomina dies February 27, 1901. My great grandmother Francesca Maria Carmina Guliano of Quadrelle (born February 12, 1878) immigrates to the US by herself, and as single, on September 18, 1901. She also enters through Ellis Island. On the ship manifest I can make out the last name Petraglia, so I know she is headed to Vermont to Carmine. I have been searching in vain for their marriage certificate. My grandmother was their first child and born August 1, 1902, (no vital record in Vermont for this) leading me to believe that my great grandparents were married between when Francesca immigrated and December of 1901. I have searched vital records at the town and state levels in Vermont and have come up empty handed. I also thought perhaps they could have been married in NYC, but a search of all the boroughs has also left me empty handed.

So my new friends, my questions are… what were the customs for marriage at the time? Would this have been an arranged marriage through mail? Would Carmine have gone to NYC to get Francesca or would she have made her way to Vermont by herself? And when would they have been married? The week she arrived, a month or two later?

Any thoughts or observations are greatly appreciated. I have been searching for this information for years… it is driving me crazy!
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby wldspirit » 06 Apr 2009, 12:45

One thought comes to mind, are you sure that he did not return to Italy to find a wife, and that the marriage took place there?
My Nonni is listed as single per manifest, when in fact she was married......
and it is quite common to find that our ancestors made more than one trip back to the old country.
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Biff83 » 06 Apr 2009, 15:33

For reference:

1901 manifest line 19

Because of the X next to Francesca's name on the ship manifest, I checked the detainee pages for her and found the following:

1901 detainee record line 13

Based on the information on the detainee record, Francesca was "sent (to the states) to be married to" Carmine whose address is shown as 86 Mulberry St, NYC, possibly a temporary address for him while he awaited her arrival? An arranged marriage?

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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 06 Apr 2009, 20:42

Thank you both for your replies! I did search the Quadrelle records and did not find a certificate there. Carmine’s sister did live on Mulberry Street in NYC!!! I had no idea the X meant there was more information!!!!! WOW!!! So now I know for sure Francesca went to Carmine's sister’s on Mulberry St!!! I looked back in my notes and I did send inquiries to the nearest Catholic church (St. Patrick’s also on Mulberry St.) NYC vital records and NY state vital records (in addition to the state of Vermont and individual towns in the area) and none had a record of the marriage… Perhaps locating this is just not meant to be…

Can anyone think of any USA documents in which they would have needed to disclose marriage information on?
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Biff83 » 06 Apr 2009, 22:09

View of Mulberry Street sometime between 1900 and 1910; 86 Mulberry Street in right foreground. From Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/pphome.html

Image

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Re: Marriage customs

Postby aliza24 » 06 Apr 2009, 22:13

Since you've checked so many places and thus far haven't been able to find the records you're looking for, I would try as many alternative routes as possible. Go back to the drawing board- and try to use what you DO KNOW instead of focusing on what you don't.

In other words, tracking the people around them- siblings, cousins, kids, etc. Get as many details as you can and see if that leads you to any new details that you may have overlooked.

For example, you know where Carmine's sister was living. Did she get married around the same time? Or have a child around the same time? If so, what church? Mulberry street is in the heart of Little Italy. There are other churches they could have gone to.

I'm sure you've probably already done a lot of this but you never know, maybe you'll uncover some new clues if you take the focus off of your direct line and take a fresh approach.
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 06 Apr 2009, 22:16

Biff83 wrote:View of Mulberry Street sometime between 1900 and 1910; 86 Mulberry Street in right foreground. From Library of Congress Prints and Photographs collection.
http://lcweb2.loc.gov/pp/pphome.html

Image

Biff



OH MY GOSH!!! I never expected anything this wonderful!!! WOW! This is so very exciting. I cannot convey in words what this picture and your kindness mean to me! I am shaking! I never thought I could see a picture of where my family lived over 100 years ago. I am in awe.

THANK YOU!!! :D
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 06 Apr 2009, 22:19

aliza24 wrote:Since you've checked so many places and thus far haven't been able to find the records you're looking for, I would try as many alternative routes as possible. Go back to the drawing board- and try to use what you DO KNOW instead of focusing on what you don't.

In other words, tracking the people around them- siblings, cousins, kids, etc. Get as many details as you can and see if that leads you to any new details that you may have overlooked.

For example, you know where Carmine's sister was living. Did she get married around the same time? Or have a child around the same time? If so, what church? Mulberry street is in the heart of Little Italy. There are other churches they could have gone to.

I'm sure you've probably already done a lot of this but you never know, maybe you'll uncover some new clues if you take the focus off of your direct line and take a fresh approach.


This is an excellent point! I have not researched this yet, but I think it is a wonderful next step. Thank you for your observations and suggestions!
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Biff83 » 08 Apr 2009, 23:20

Tammara,

Have you checked with Most Precious Bloood church for a marriage record?

Most Precious Blood Church
109 Mulberry Street
NYC

Biff
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 09 Apr 2009, 00:26

Biff83 wrote:Tammara,

Have you checked with Most Precious Bloood church for a marriage record?

Most Precious Blood Church
109 Mulberry Street
NYC

Biff


WOW!!! THANK YOU!!! I thought St. Patrick's was the closest church (they had no record)! I just sent an email to Most Precious Blood. Cross your fingers for me!!!
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Italysearcher » 09 Apr 2009, 18:19

Since you asked about marriage customs it is possible they were married by proxy. Where a brother stood in for the groom. This happened after WW2 in one search I did and in another someone stood in for the bride at the civil ceremony.
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 09 Apr 2009, 22:11

Italysearcher wrote:Since you asked about marriage customs it is possible they were married by proxy. Where a brother stood in for the groom. This happened after WW2 in one search I did and in another someone stood in for the bride at the civil ceremony.


Very interesting... never knew this could have been a possibility. I did search the records in Quadrelle where they were both from and didn't see a record. Do you know how the record would have been recorded if this were done? I presume the name of Carmine would have had to be on the record somewhere... humm...

I did not hear back from the church today...
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Italysearcher » 10 Apr 2009, 11:51

The name of the groom was very clearly stated on the record. On the one I found (1911) It stated name of the groom (by procura) name of the person representing him then the details of the groom.
The act was recorded as if he were present.
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby Italysearcher » 10 Apr 2009, 11:52

The name of the groom was very clearly stated on the record. On the one I found (1911) It stated name of the groom (by procura) name of the person representing him then the details of the groom.
The act was recorded as if he were present.
They could have been married only in the church OR only at City Hall.
Ann Tatangelo
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ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505
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Re: Marriage customs

Postby tammara » 25 Apr 2009, 15:54

Biff83 wrote:Tammara,

Have you checked with Most Precious Bloood church for a marriage record?

Most Precious Blood Church
109 Mulberry Street
NYC

Biff



:D
Biff, you were right!!! I received a very nice hand written copy of their marriage certificate from Most Precious Blood in today’s mail. I just can't believe that I finally have located the place and church, and know the date!!! WOW!! I have been searching for this for years! Thanks so much Biff for taking the time to help me with this. Words cannot covey how grateful I am.
Researching my family from Quadrelle in Avellino
Petraglia * Guliano * Conte * Masuccio * Fiordellisi * di Lucia * Bianco
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