help with translation please

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Cazzie
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help with translation please

Postby Cazzie » 24 Sep 2008, 13:04

Could someone please help with translation of the following please.
It is taken from British History online Henry VIII letters December 1515

"chassa et soi muli, et fami[gli] tuti. Scriveno di Bressa di uni toti che in li chari ... del dito Navaro era di grande dinari per la pa ... di Gaschoni, non mancho de sei milgia schudi. Alchu[ni] dicono piu che 500 homeni darmi Francesi ... circha 5,000 Gaschoni, 5 milia fanti Venit[iani] et 800 homeni darmi poi chavali lizeri ... cernedi di vilani; ma vi prometto che da nostri ... et Gaschoni et altri pocho stimati"

Many thanks

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Cazzie
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Re: help with translation please

Postby Cazzie » 24 Sep 2008, 16:33

Do you think this IS Italian?

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PeterTimber
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Re: help with translation please

Postby PeterTimber » 24 Sep 2008, 16:41

It is "elizabethan" Italian.=Peter=

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Cazzie
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Re: help with translation please

Postby Cazzie » 24 Sep 2008, 16:43

Thankyou!
Where do you think I can get this translated? I contains my GASCHONI ancestors name.

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Re: help with translation please

Postby PeterTimber » 24 Sep 2008, 17:04

It deals with money, sodliers and arms and I could only do a half baked job of translating about these matters but the first written sentences are beyond my ken. I amsure someone here who is conversant with period Latin vulgate may be more able to assist. =Peter=

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Lucap
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Re: help with translation please

Postby Lucap » 24 Sep 2008, 17:14

I don't think Gaschoni is a surname but an ancient form for the word "Guasconi" that means "inhabitants of Guascogna" ( http://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guascogna - the page is in italian, sorry).

Luca

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Re: help with translation please

Postby PeterTimber » 24 Sep 2008, 17:35

Dear Luca I used the phrase Latin Vulgate when I was researching my family surname back to the 1100's and and came across that phrase. It is meant that commonly spoken Latin in centuries prior to the dark ages evolved over time to where the then spoken Italian had many more Latin constructions and was considered to be Latin Vulgate or early Italian. =Peter=

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Re: help with translation please

Postby Lucap » 24 Sep 2008, 22:10

Sorry Peter, but i don't understood what you meant :oops: Why was you explaining me what is a vulgata?

For Cazzie:
I know that Guaschoni can be a surname (you told one of your ancestors was a Guaschoni, and i believe it).
I meant that in the phrase you posted it isn't absolutely a surname, although the sense of the sentence can't be entirely comprehended.

Luca

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Re: help with translation please

Postby PeterTimber » 24 Sep 2008, 23:52

Dear Luca Because you said that the wording was Italian and to which I agreed because Latin Vulgate in that time period is the same as early Italian. I should have added "early Italian" to Latin Vulgate. =Peter=

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Re: help with translation please

Postby liviomoreno » 25 Sep 2008, 05:30

PeterTimber wrote:Dear Luca Because you said that the wording was Italian and to which I agreed because Latin Vulgate in that time period is the same as early Italian. I should have added "early Italian" to Latin Vulgate. =Peter=

Dear Peter, if you read carefully the original post from Luca, you will see that the sentence "the page is in italian, sorry" was referred to the web page it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guascogna :wink:

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Cazzie
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Re: help with translation please

Postby Cazzie » 25 Sep 2008, 07:06

Dear Luca
Yes, thankyou for that.I realise you didn't mean that GASCHONI wasn't a surname - just in context of the script.I really appreciate all the comments and help.I have learnt so much from this message board more than in my 6 years of research! :lol:
Caz

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Re: help with translation please

Postby sylogician » 25 Sep 2008, 07:13

By a strange coincidence the tables I am currently translating dealing with the Trotti family were compiled by Prince Francesco Guasco in the 1920's. The greater part of the tables (which I have not even begun to work on) deal with Guasco's own lineage. When Lucap mentioned Guaschoni as a possible alternate spelling of Gaschoni, I decided to see if I could find anything in the Guasco tables. This was interesting...

FRANCESCO GUASCO
An ardent young man and valorous captain under the flag of France. On 15 August 1513, he re-entered Alessandria, where he had exited some days before, leading the French with 500 men on horse, forcing the Spanish to leave the city. Distinguishing himself in the bloody battle with the Imperial French that was fought at Maringnano in 1515, he was, in the presence of all the army, made a knight by King Francesco I, and later named master of the field and private counselor. Greatly displeased along with the king of France at the cruelty and tyranny used by the Alemanni in Rome, then allied with Henry King of England, he decided to move to free the Pope, imprisoned in Castel Sant' Angelo. Answering to such pitiful need, a powerful army under the orders of Odetto di Foix Lord of Lantrec, made passage in the month of July through the Alps, coming down into Italy and in the month of August reached Asti, where it made camp. This was unified with Guasco’s company of exiled Alessandrians, his ardent supporters. 1527. He was an intimate of Guglielmo the Marquis of Monferrato, the Duke of Borbone, the Cardinals of Salviati and of Lorena, of D. Giacomo de Leiva and of Giacomo Triulzio. He died in Alexandria in 1536.
m. LEONORA TROTTI daughter of Francesco Count of Ovada and Lord of Fresonara

Notes: Francesco I is better known as Francis I, King of France in 1515. Francis I and his Venetian allies defeated the combined armies of England, the Holy Roman Empire and Spain at the battle of Maringnano on September 14, 1515. The French had previously been defeated at the battle of Novara in June of 1513.
The Pope alluded to is Leo X. Though he is noted above as a prisoner in Castel Sant’ Angelo and that Francis I set out to free him and Rome from the cruelty and tyranny of the Alemanni (Germans), this is not wholly accurate. Leo X orchestrated the alliance between the English, SRI and Spain to counterbalance French ambitions in Lombardy and Piedmonte.
That Guasco was singled out at Maringnano, and that he had a large company of adherents under his control might (through the corruption of language) be the origin of Gaschoni found in your 16th century document.
This does not mean that Francesco Guasco is an ancestor of your, or even that these Gaschoni are related to you (or him) but it is an intriguing place to start.

If you want I can email you a pdf picture of the associated Table. It's in Italian. But fortunately, modern Italian.

David Trotti

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Re: help with translation please

Postby sylogician » 25 Sep 2008, 07:35

Update: I made a mistake, not knowing enough about Italian history in the 1500's. The Pope to be rescued was not Leo X. He was Clement the VII. That's what the 1527 means after the description of Odetto di Foix's invasion of Italy. The sack of Rome at the hands of the Germans happened in 1527. So 12 years after Maringnano, Guasco unified his Alessandrians with the French forces to set out for Rome. It doesn't change the first part (that Guasco was allied with the French at Maringnano, and led his own forces). But it does mean the alpine crossing in July refers to the later event.

Just trying to keep it all straight.

David Trotti

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Cazzie
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Re: help with translation please

Postby Cazzie » 25 Sep 2008, 09:14

Yes please David, I would appreciate a PDF of the table.
Many many thanks.
Caz

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Re: help with translation please

Postby PeterTimber » 25 Sep 2008, 13:15

Thanks Livio. Thisis what happens when you think your eyes are young even though your old. =Peter=


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