Help with Latin marriage record

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Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 08 Mar 2010, 03:35

Can someone please retype this record in latin. If you can translate it, I would appreciate it also. I have lots to do, I just want to know the exact words so I can learn them.
Thanks
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/ee20 ... ction=view¤t=IMG_2159small.jpg
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 08 Mar 2010, 06:11

Here is a second link to a picture of this record.
http://img62.imageshack.us/i/img2159small.jpg/
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Lucap » 08 Mar 2010, 21:56

Anno millesimo octingentesimo decimoquinto die secunda aprilis.
Unica pro tribus ex dispensatione curia Taurius(!) praemissa denunciatione, quae die vigesimasexta martii, dominica Paschalis [n.b. Paschae] facta est, nulloq(ue) legitimo impedimento detecto Antonium filium q(uond)am Dominici Pezzé, viduum q(uond)am Joannae Girot, et Mariam Ursulam filiam q(uond)am Jacobi Milano, ambos huius loci interrogavi, eorumq(ue) mutuo consensu habito matrimonio coniunxi ego infrascriptus praesentibus testibus notis Dominico Alice ex Josepho, et Bernardo q(uond)am d(ict)i Jacobi Milano, et aliis
Jo(ann)es Bernardus Fenoglio Prior Par(rochia)lis

Anno milleottocentoquindici (1815) il giorno 2 di Aprile.
Premessa un'unica pubblicazione a posto di tre su dispensa della curia di Tauro(!), la quale fu fatta il giorno 26 di marzo, domenica di Pasqua, e nessun legittimo impedimento scoperto, interrogai Antonio figlio del fu Domenico Pezzé, vedovo della fu Giovanna Girot e Maria Ursula figlia del fu Giacomo Milano, entrambi di questo luogo, e avuto il loro reciproco consenso li congiunsi in matrimonio io infrascritto, presenti i testimoni noti Domenico Alice di Giuseppe e Bernardo del detto fu Giacomo Milano e altri.
Giovanni Bernardo Fenoglio priore della parrocchia

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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 09 Mar 2010, 05:28

Thank you so much Lucap. I am delighted with your writing this in both latin and italian. This is extremely helpful to me in translating my records.
I now have some baptismal records and hope that you might do the same thing for one of them. Can you write out the Bottino record from this link. This is very helpful to me. Thank you so much.
Paul

http://img694.imageshack.us/i/img2161z.jpg/
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Lucap » 09 Mar 2010, 09:21

Eodem anno die decimaterta julii Adm(odum) R(everendo) D(omino) Mattheus Casethbroch(!!!) baptizavit infantem predie natam ex Jacobo filio Jo(ann)is Laurentii Bottino, et Maria filia Petri Obert coniugibus, cui nomen imposuit Maria Josepha. Patrini Bernardus q(uon)dam Pauli Data, et Maria Josepha filia praed(ict)i Laurentii Bottino.

Lo stesso anno il giorno tredici di luglio il molto reverendo Don Matteo Casethbroch(!! - not an italian surname) battezzò un'infante nata il giorno precedente da Giacomo figlio di Giovanni di Lorenzo Bottino e da Maria figlia di Pietro Obert coniugi, a cui impose il nome di Maria Giuseppa. Padrini Bernardo del fu Paolo Data e Maria Giuseppa figlia del detto Lorenzo Bottino.

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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Maurizio » 09 Mar 2010, 12:18

Lucap already offered a wonderfully accurate transcription and translation.

I'd only add a couple of annotation:
1) In the first act, the word after "Curia" is "Taurinis": the parish church belong to the archdioceses of Turin.

2) In the second act, the baptizer has a double surname (they are common in this part of the country), i.e.: Caset Brach.

I'd finally add that all the surnames mentioned (Bottino, Milano, Obert, Girot, Fenoglio, Caset Brach, Data) are absolutely typical (and still very common at the present day) of the village of Forno Canavese, here in the north-western corner of Piemonte.

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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Lucap » 09 Mar 2010, 12:43

Grazie per le precisazioni, Maurizio.
Effettivamente non sono piemontese ed alcuni cognomi non mi sono affatto familiari e rischio di non "prenderli" (avrai notato i punti esclamativi).
Per il taurinis. Ero convinto che, come spesso accade, si trattasse di atti del sud Italia e non mi era affatto venuto in mente che si potesse trattare di nord-ovest.
Spero che il resto ti convinca.
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Maurizio » 09 Mar 2010, 14:01

Lucap,
la tua trascrizione era impeccabile. Quanto ai cognomi, per me è stato più facile ma solo perché è proprio la mia zona e dunque li conosco per esperienza diretta.
Buona giornata.
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 09 Mar 2010, 15:58

Lucap
Thank you so very much for your valuable translation of my record. This will be very helpful to me in identifying my Italian ancestors.

Maurizio,
Thank you for your comments about Forno Canavese. It sounds like you are very familiar with that town. I am encouraged to know that there are still lots of Bottinos living there. Maybe some day I will be able to identify some living relatives there.

Thank you both again.
Paul
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby trevisan2 » 09 Mar 2010, 22:33

You guys are amazing!! Thanks a million. all of us can learn from your guidance.

Regards
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Researching in the provience of Treviso, Italy, Provaglio Sopra, Val Sabbia of Brescia.
Domege di Cadore

Forno di Rivara, TO, Canischio, TO

Surnames Melchiori of Oderzo, TV, Vendrame of TV, Rossi of Rai di San Polo, Bonotto of TV.
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 23 Mar 2010, 03:33

I have one question about this baptismal notice.
http://img694.imageshack.us/i/img2161z.jpg/, which you have already translated above.
Is it saying that Jacobo is the son of Jo(ann)is Laurentii Bottino, OR as the italian translation suggests I think, that Giacomo, is the son of Giovanni, the SON of Lorenzo Bottino.
It is actually the Italian translation that is confusing to us.
I am saying that the latin translation is simply Jacobo is the son of Jo(ann)is Laurentii Bottino. OR does the "is" mean something else.
Thanks
Paul
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Lucap » 23 Mar 2010, 10:28

Joannis and Laurentii are both in the genitive form, so they should indicate TWO different names and TWO different persons (Giovanni, Giacomo's father, and Lorenzo, the grandfather). But in the case that the father had two names himself, the form is the same... so the doubt remains!!!

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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 23 Mar 2010, 15:37

Thank you Lucap. It would appear from your Italian translation, that your initial impression was that Joannis and Laurentii were in fact two different persons, grandfather and great grandfather. Do you think that the correct form would be to list the father, his father, and great grandfather , but only the wife's father in the record.
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby Maurizio » 23 Mar 2010, 19:52

HI.
I so agreed with Lucap's first translation, that I didn't noticed this uncertainty.

For what is worth, my opinion is the grandfather had two first-names: mentioning both of them appears to me less uncommon than adding one generation in the paternity line. In my (limited) experience with acts of this kind in this area, I can't remember any of them indicating great-grandparents of a baptized newborn, at least for people of low (i.e. "normal") social condition. It doesn't happen, for example, in the two other registrations we can see in the picture you posted.

Moreover, and exactly because that wasn't the usual procedure, in case the priest deliberately decided to mention the greatgrandfather too, chances are he himself (the priest, I mean) would have chose a most clear way to do that, for example by writing between the names Giovanni and Lorenzo the words "filii" or "q(uon)dam".

These are only my two cents, obviously... In Genealogy, as in life, you can never say never.
So, as Lucap correctly stated, the doubt remains... at least until you'll go further and find Giacomo's baptism or marriage act.

Ciao,
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Re: Help with Latin marriage record

Postby bottino » 23 Mar 2010, 20:03

Maurizio,
Thank you very much for your contribution. I also noticed that in the other baptismal entries, there is no indication of the great grandfather. I think that is a good indicator that this is just the grandfather. You are also right, when I find him again, either as another father, or a marriage, it may get resolved.
I will just note it for now.
Thank you for your help.
Paul
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