Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 00:36

Ignazio (yes, you read it correctly) was born on the 26 of January 1884, the document is dated January 27. Later in the record it says he was born "ieri" - yesterday.

I'll go back and find that manifest...can't remember how old...

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 00:43

Yes, that could help explain the Stefano / Antonio thing.

On the name change, the family story is that Tommaso was asked, at some critical point, for his name. As a 12 yr old kid who didn't speak english, he thought he was being asked the name of his sponsor. He responded with something that sounded like Q-LEE-OH, which became Cular - his surname for the rest of his life. At some later point, when he was married, with married kids - there was a family discussion about going back to the original family name. Tommaso - now Thomas - was adamant - no, we're in America now - we're not going back to old-country things.

This is what is confusing to me - there were never any family stories about Tommaso joining a father in the US - adoptive or otherwise. Stories were always about a sponsor. I suppose his sponsor could have been Antonio Q-LEE-OH. Could young Tommaso have been coached, as he left Italy, to refer to his sponsor as his father ? He also went so far as to name his first-born son Anthony. None of his sons were named Stefano (or Steven ?).

Tessa78 wrote:Just a thought Craig :roll:

The Antonio that was in New York to whom Tommaso and Nunzi were traveling...could this be an adoptive parent? Didn't you say there was a name change?

Just brainstorming.... :D

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 00:52

Great story...

A must for passing to the next generations...

And I know what you mean about the "no, we're in America now" ... :-)


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 00:53

Thanks - I've made that change in my notes.
That would make him born ABT 1854 ... perhaps:

Name: Stefano Margiotta
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 01 Dec 1854
Baptism/Christening Place: Sciacca, Sciacca, Girgenti
Birthplace: Sciacca, Agrigento, Italy
Name Note: Esposito, nome e cognome della balia Benedetta/Margiotta
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C74073-3
System Origin: Italy-EASy
Source Film Number: 1603636
Reference Number: 1854 Diversi # 31
Collection: Italy Births and Baptisms, 1806-1900

What does that "Name Note" mean ?
"Esposito, nome e cognome della balia Benedetta/Margiotta"

Tessa78 wrote:Craig,

Just in case you find yourself staring at microfilm looking for Stefano Margiotta's birth record...I took another look at the birth record for Tommaso and I see that Stefano's age looks like 31, not 39.... trentuno, not trentanove.

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 00:59

"nome e cognome della balia Benedetta/Margiotta"
means
name and surname of nurse Benedetta/Margiotta

Esposito is the name given to abandoned children or children with no parents' names.

I saw Stefano Esposito as the name listed for father of bride Maria Margiotta in the familysearch site.


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 01:09

Here's the record for Michele (is that a male name ?):
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7093/m ... medres.jpg
Sorry about the quality of this one - the film was quite light.

Father is Stefano, but the mother is not Giuseppa.

Does it say anywhere "illegitimate" ?
Does it say he is married to the mother ?

It boggles my mind that there might be so many relatives in the US, but no one in the family has any idea of that possibility !


Tessa78 wrote:On the Michele birth record, be sure you aren't assuming that the person appearing before the official is the father. Sometimes another person would go to present the newborn, especially if the father was "away"...

Have come across that many times...


You'll have family galore!!!!

Here is manifest for Stefano Margiotta, 36, son of Michele Margiotta (probably the Michele you found the birth record for- OR a cousin) traveling with family in 1909...wife Giuseppa Mantia, children: Calogero, Michele, Rosa..

lines 8 - 12
http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011

page 2
http://www.ellisisland.org/EIFile/popup ... &line=0011



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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 01:16

So, does that mean that Stefano Margiotta b. 1854 is not actually of Margiotta lineage ? That instead, nurse Benedetta gave him the given name of Esposito, her own surname, and that some time in his life, his given name changed to Stefano ?

When will these plot twists ever end ?


Tessa78 wrote:"nome e cognome della balia Benedetta/Margiotta"
means
name and surname of nurse Benedetta/Margiotta

Esposito is the name given to abandoned children or children with no parents' names.

I saw Stefano Esposito as the name listed for father of bride Maria Margiotta in the familysearch site.


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 02:49

Here is Melchiorre's birth record (if I read the given name correctly) - he married at age 22:
http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/8615 ... tamedr.jpg

and little Nunzia, who came over with Tommasso - she married at age 18:
http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/7259 ... medres.jpg

and Maria - she married at age 18 also:
http://img690.imageshack.us/img690/5918 ... medres.jpg

I wonder why Maria would offer Esposito as her father's name - that wasn't exactly a positive thing, was it ? Didn't they outlaw at some point the use of surnames that indicated abandonment or adoption ?

Thanks,
Craig

Tessa78 wrote:On the free site.... www.pilot.familysearch.org

Some interesting listings..

Marriage of Melchiorre Margiotta (father Stefano Margiotta, mother Giuseppa Licata). Marriage taking place in 1904 in Manhattan.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... 7221&pn=p6

Marriage of Nunziata Margiotta (F-Stefano, M-Giuseppa Licata). Marriage takes place in Manhattan in 1907.

http://pilot.familysearch.org/recordsea ... 1237&pn=p3

From free site www.italiangen.org
NYC Marriage Index listings...

Surname Given Name Month Day Year County Certificate #Number
Margiotta Melchione Apr 3 1904 Manhattan 7127
Fiorentine Giuseppa Apr 3 1904 Manhattan 7127

You can order this Marriage record from NYC VItal records online for about $15.00
http://www.nyc.gov/html/records/html/vi ... iage.shtml

Also found a marriage on familysearch for Maria Margiotta in Manhattan in Jan 1904 with mother Giuseppa Licata and father Stefano...

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 15:02

uzzk23a wrote:Here's the record for Michele (is that a male name ?):
http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/7093/m ... medres.jpg
Sorry about the quality of this one - the film was quite light.

Father is Stefano, but the mother is not Giuseppa.

Does it say anywhere "illegitimate" ?
Does it say he is married to the mother ?



I do not think that this Stefano Margiotta is the same father as we have seen for Tommaso and Nunzia. It may be one of a number of cousins, who because of Italian naming traditions, often have the same name.

Michele is the Italian form of Michael.

As for naming/nurse thing... I would have to see the actual document to see if a notation was made... it would seem that way, but who knows...lost in history...

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 15:22

Found the manifest again for Ignazio...much too young, age 8 in 1898.

But...curious...and curiouser...
Here is a manifest for Stefano Espositio, age 41, marinaio, from Sciacca.
Traveling with "daughter" Saveria, age 16.
Arriving NY 1895, March.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1854 ... 96mani.jpg


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 17:24

So that's the right age and occupation for Stefano.
Saveria would have been born in 1879, on the reel of microfilm prior to the one I have - so I would not have seen her yet.

But ... why would Stefano give his surname as Esposito - wasn't there a stigma associated with that ? And yet he gave his surname as Margiotta on the birth records in Sciacca. ???


Tessa78 wrote:Found the manifest again for Ignazio...much too young, age 8 in 1898.

But...curious...and curiouser...
Here is a manifest for Stefano Espositio, age 41, marinaio, from Sciacca.
Traveling with "daughter" Saveria, age 16.
Arriving NY 1895, March.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1854 ... 96mani.jpg


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 18:12

Going with the theory that Antonio *is* a different person than Stefano (e.g. sponsor or relative or adoptive father) ... are there Italian surnames that would sound like "Q-LEE-OH" ?

Thanks,
Craig

uzzk23a wrote:Yes, that could help explain the Stefano / Antonio thing.

On the name change, the family story is that Tommaso was asked, at some critical point, for his name. As a 12 yr old kid who didn't speak english, he thought he was being asked the name of his sponsor. He responded with something that sounded like Q-LEE-OH, which became Cular - his surname for the rest of his life. At some later point, when he was married, with married kids - there was a family discussion about going back to the original family name. Tommaso - now Thomas - was adamant - no, we're in America now - we're not going back to old-country things.

This is what is confusing to me - there were never any family stories about Tommaso joining a father in the US - adoptive or otherwise. Stories were always about a sponsor. I suppose his sponsor could have been Antonio Q-LEE-OH. Could young Tommaso have been coached, as he left Italy, to refer to his sponsor as his father ? He also went so far as to name his first-born son Anthony. None of his sons were named Stefano (or Steven ?).

Tessa78 wrote:Just a thought Craig :roll:

The Antonio that was in New York to whom Tommaso and Nunzi were traveling...could this be an adoptive parent? Didn't you say there was a name change?

Just brainstorming.... :D

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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby uzzk23a » 15 Jul 2010, 18:20

So, what do you think of the following strategy:

I'll get the microfilm reel for the decade 1870-1879, and hopefully find the rest of Stefano and Giuseppa's kids.

That will be necessary in order to validate or reject the manifest with Saveria.

Also, with the complete list of kids, if they indeed followed:
* The second boy was usually named for the mother’s father.
* The second girl was usually named for the mother’s mother.

Then I could narrow down the long list of Giuseppa Licata's born in Sciacca, get the exact birth date of Giuseppa, and then better validate possible manifests with Giuseppa.

Tessa78 wrote:Found the manifest again for Ignazio...much too young, age 8 in 1898.

But...curious...and curiouser...
Here is a manifest for Stefano Espositio, age 41, marinaio, from Sciacca.
Traveling with "daughter" Saveria, age 16.
Arriving NY 1895, March.

http://img686.imageshack.us/img686/1854 ... 96mani.jpg


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Tessa78 » 15 Jul 2010, 20:29

uzzk23a wrote:
So, what do you think of the following strategy:

I'll get the microfilm reel for the decade 1870-1879, and hopefully find the rest of Stefano and Giuseppa's kids.

That will be necessary in order to validate or reject the manifest with Saveria.

Also, with the complete list of kids, if they indeed followed:
* The second boy was usually named for the mother’s father.
* The second girl was usually named for the mother’s mother.

Then I could narrow down the long list of Giuseppa Licata's born in Sciacca, get the exact birth date of Giuseppa, and then better validate possible manifests with Giuseppa.[
quote]

That sounds like a plan... :-)

Sometimes we don't get definite answers.
Esposito may have been the name at birth (on record), and an attachment with change may have been recorded, but if Stefano needed to produce a birth record for a travel document, Esposito may have been the name on the record. I wouldn't get too caught up in the "idea" of the name being an embarrassment...

Closest I could come to a name sounding like your pronunciation is "Chiulli"


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Re: Help with Birth Record Translation, Please

Postby Sirena » 16 Jul 2010, 00:24

oops...saw the wrong post as the last one.
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