Is this unusual?

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
20 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 19 Jun 2004, 09:14

I am trying to translate a birth record. The partial translation gives the fathers name and says the dalla rea unione con donna non maritoto non parente re affine con lui nei gradi che ostano al monosamento

I know some words are mispelled, I have tried to figure out the handwriting on some to no avail.

If I translate correctly it partially says
From the guilty union with woman, not married, not relative, analogous

His marriage record gives his fathers name and list mother -[b]madre ignoto or mother unknown.
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby suanj » 19 Jun 2004, 17:05

JoBuj wrote:I am trying to translate a birth record. The partial translation gives the fathers name and says the dalla rea unione con donna non maritoto non parente re affine con lui nei gradi che ostano al monosamento

I know some words are mispelled, I have tried to figure out the handwriting on some to no avail.

If I translate correctly it partially says
From the guilty union with woman, not married, not relative, analogous

His marriage record gives his fathers name and list mother -madre ignoto or mother unknown.

Hi is ancient italian language:
"dalla rea unione con donna non maritoto non parente re affine con lui nei gradi che ostano al monosamento"= dalla colpevole unione con donna non maritato, non parente, nè affine con lui nei gradi che ostano al sacramento= [b] from the guilty union with not married woman, not relative, neither analogous with he in the degrees that hinder to the sacramento (marriage) the mother really is the woman unknow name also person whom she does not want to be name
regards, suanj
User avatar
suanj
V.I.P.
V.I.P.
 
Posts: 11261
Joined: 20 Feb 2003, 01:00
Location: Molise region, Italy

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 19 Jun 2004, 19:08

Grazie Suanj

Isn't this unusual for the father to announce the illegitimate birth of his son and raise him? I have read normally the mother is listed in such a circumstance of illegitimacy.
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby suanj » 19 Jun 2004, 19:14

JoBuj wrote:Grazie Suanj

Isn't this unusual for the father to announce the illegitimate birth of his son and raise him? I have read normally the mother is listed in such a circumstance of illegitimacy.

Hello: no, not is inusual; is usual if:
- the mother are rich or noble person and the father no;
-or viceversa....
bye, suanj
User avatar
suanj
V.I.P.
V.I.P.
 
Posts: 11261
Joined: 20 Feb 2003, 01:00
Location: Molise region, Italy

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 19 Jun 2004, 22:11

Birth record states father was a Contadino - peasant farmer. Maybe she was from a upper class family.

I appreciate your help. Grazie Suanj
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 25 Jun 2004, 22:07

???
I am guessing this is not considered a illegitimate birth since the father gave his name and raised him. Correct? How did ancient Italy view this?
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby ptimber » 26 Jun 2004, 06:27

If would appear that someone born out of wedlock, in those times, whether raised by the mother or the father would be stigmatized in one way or the other. He was a bastard son andabandoned by his mother, in Italy at that time. Peter
ptimber
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5198
Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 02:00
Location: ny

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 26 Jun 2004, 07:21

Even with the fathers name and raised by him? I guess the key is wedlock.
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby ptimber » 26 Jun 2004, 07:36

....and the illicit affair between the "gvardner" and the "padrone's daughter" coupled with the gossip and a legend was born. Peter
ptimber
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5198
Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 02:00
Location: ny

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 26 Jun 2004, 08:37

Yes and this legend would be my great grandfather. :)
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby suanj » 26 Jun 2004, 10:06

JoBuj wrote:???
I am guessing this is not considered a illegitimate birth since the father gave his name and raised him. Correct? How did ancient Italy view this?

The child legitimate from father not are bastard in Italy, but "son born out marriage" and only of "mother unknow"... regards, suanj
User avatar
suanj
V.I.P.
V.I.P.
 
Posts: 11261
Joined: 20 Feb 2003, 01:00
Location: Molise region, Italy

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby ptimber » 26 Jun 2004, 16:27

If they are not married then according to english law the child is a bastard no matter who raises him. The child is the result of an illicit affair. Peter
ptimber
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5198
Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 02:00
Location: ny

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby JoBuj » 26 Jun 2004, 19:05

Interesting

I found this article, here is a portion from the link below.

http://www.regalis.com/adopt.htm

Before embarking on any project involving an adoptive ancestor or one born outside marriage, it is important that the researcher acknowledge and comprehend several factors. From 1860 until 1929, the Italian state (i.e. the Kingdom of Italy) did not recognize Catholic marriages. Although it is true that both ecclesiastical and civil marriages were performed for most spousal unions in certain parts of Italy (such as the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies) in the decades before 1860, the Kingdom of Italy refused to recognize ecclesiastical marriages altogether. This means that an act of birth from, for example, 1875, might refer to a child as the son of "an unwed mother" who in fact was married in church but not at the town hall. Terms of one of the Lateran Treaties granted retroactive state recognition of these ecclesiastical marriages in 1929. Therefore, such acts must be confirmed by consultation of parochial records.

Hearsay may provide certain general information, but its legitimate research value usually correlates in some way (often inversely) to its social value. An unwed mother might have claimed, perhaps long after her child's birth and far away from the locality where she resided when she gave birth, that the natural father was a local aristocrat; families often perpetuated such stories to salvage the dignity of both mother and child. A genealogist, however, would require more than a merely circumstantial "allegation" of paternity in such a case-namely, a formal act of recognition sworn by the natural father before the vital statistics registrar.

An act of recognition would not have "legitimized" such a child for purposes such as succession to a title of nobility, though it may have allowed him, if only under very particular conditions, to inherit certain other paternal property, but in any event a married man would not likely consent to acknowledge publicly that he had committed adultery or fornication. The principle of legitimacy relates to crown (statutory) and church (canon) laws too complex to be described in detail here. Illegitimacy in Italy has never been as rigidly defined as in English law, which distinguishes, for example, between "bastards" and "adulterine bastards."
User avatar
JoBuj
Rookie
Rookie
 
Posts: 26
Joined: 25 Jan 2003, 01:00
Location: MD USA

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby ptimber » 26 Jun 2004, 19:38

Now we have the makings of the great italian novel!! Peter
ptimber
Master
Master
 
Posts: 5198
Joined: 01 Jan 1970, 02:00
Location: ny

Re: Is this unusual?

Postby suanj » 27 Jun 2004, 07:15

I task that who has written this article does not know the Italian things well.
Until 1871 not exist communal registries for birth certificates, deaths, marriages.
The reghistries they began from september 1871 for law.
Therefore after Italian unit.
Before of 1860, Italy was composed of many small states, and every State had its laws, similar to those of the others is, but not equal, therefore some Italian states were more modern of others and some Common Italians had already the registries.
After the 1871 registries they were obbligates for all.
But all the Common did not obey and therefore they much later began to have the registries also 1871.
But also if Italy before 1860, was composed of many small states, was joined from a great truth, that is Catholic Church, that he conserved the own relative registries you to the Sacrament (baptisms, wedding, deaths)from very very ancient age.
Therefore these catholic acts (certificate of baptism, marriages etc) was used also for political and commonal acts .
Before 1860, Every small state of Italy has always recognized the marriages in church.
It has always recognized the born children outside of the wedding like " natural sons ".
These natural sons, could be legitimate from the father or not be legitimate from father.

In Italy only legitimation shape is that of father.
A child legitimate from the father is not a bastard, why he has the last name of the father, only who has value in Italy, but conserve this child a spot in its pedigree, that is not to know from who has been give birth.
In Italy they are calls bastard those children to you who do not have the last name of father, but only that one of the mother.

Therefore a born child outside of the wedding, and legitimate from father simply result out to be, for the Church and the Italian State, a natural son (that is been born from persons not married neither in church neither in Common)legitimate from father, and with all the rights of law, for the CHURCH: been born from union illegitimate, that is without the sacramento of the wedding. This is only a religious aspect that goes separated from that of political Italian State in ever age, in ever time, before and after 1860 or 1871...
suanj
User avatar
suanj
V.I.P.
V.I.P.
 
Posts: 11261
Joined: 20 Feb 2003, 01:00
Location: Molise region, Italy

Next

20 posts • Page 1 of 21, 2

Return to Italian language, handwriting , script & translations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Baidu [Spider], Yahoo [Bot] and 6 guests

Copyright © 2014. www.ItalianGenealogy.com.