Double Check Me, Please?

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DebiHarbuck
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Double Check Me, Please?

Postby DebiHarbuck » 14 Nov 2010, 23:56

Can someone double-check my translation of this marriage record, please? Don't be afraid to tell me how far off I am :)

#51 - http://postimage.org/image/27ni9z1ms/

October 14, 1876 @ Moliterno -

Antonio Petrocelli (24, farm-hand) son of deceased Pasquale and (living) Caterina Peluso

AND

Mariantonia Cassino (30 (??), spinner) daughter of Domenico Cassino and Vincenza Pecorone (both living). (does "nubile" mean "never married" or just "single now"?)

That's as far as I got. What's written at the bottom is beyond me. :)
Roccanova/Magistra/Rubertone/Paduano of Craco, Matera, Basilicata AND Latorraca/Cassino/Petrocelli/Peluso of Saponara di Grumento (now Grumento Nova) & Moliterno, Potenza, Basilicata

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maestra36
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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 00:04

You're doing very well, Debi. She was 30 and had never before been married. The groom had never before been married either.

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby DebiHarbuck » 15 Nov 2010, 00:07

Thanks, Peg! Is "all that stuff at the bottom" basically legalities and formalities? Is it generally the same on each certificate?
Roccanova/Magistra/Rubertone/Paduano of Craco, Matera, Basilicata AND Latorraca/Cassino/Petrocelli/Peluso of Saponara di Grumento (now Grumento Nova) & Moliterno, Potenza, Basilicata

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 00:17

The bottom talks about the documents which were presented for the marriage. There was a certificate of the following publications which were made on the 27th of August and the 3rd of Sept, same year as the marriage. Then there was the consent of the mother of the groom but the father was deceased and therefore could not make himself available to give his consent. The last part talks about the bride and the mother of the groom being illiterate and therefore not signing the document. The groom, the two witnesses, and the town official signed the document.

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 00:23

Normally the handwritten info at the bottom of the marriage act is a list of the allegati or supporting documents for the marriage. Usually both spouses provide their birth records, death records for any parents or previous spouses, a copy of the certificate of the following publications which indicates that the marriage publications had been previously made and the dates of each (these are like the banns of marriage), and there is normally a statement to the effect that the publications did not result in any opposition to the marriage. None of these, except for the dates of the publications, are mentioned in the handwritten section of this document.

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby DebiHarbuck » 15 Nov 2010, 00:40

Is that (her parents' missing consent) unusual for a thirty year-old woman? If so...would it normally say if they specifically did NOT consent?
Roccanova/Magistra/Rubertone/Paduano of Craco, Matera, Basilicata AND Latorraca/Cassino/Petrocelli/Peluso of Saponara di Grumento (now Grumento Nova) & Moliterno, Potenza, Basilicata

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 00:50

I've never seen a marriage record where it said that the parents did not give their consent.

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby DebiHarbuck » 15 Nov 2010, 01:29

Have you ever seen one where living parents (they are living, right?) just didn't say anything?
Roccanova/Magistra/Rubertone/Paduano of Craco, Matera, Basilicata AND Latorraca/Cassino/Petrocelli/Peluso of Saponara di Grumento (now Grumento Nova) & Moliterno, Potenza, Basilicata

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 04:32

Debi,
Look at the record next to yours. The groom is 29. His mother is deceased, but his father is alive. His father did not give consent to his marriage. In the handwritten section at the bottom, it says that the mother of the 16 year old bride gave her consent, but her husband was deceased and was not available to do so. So here we have another record with a living parent not giving consent. Before the unification of Italy, fathers were required to give their consent but, if deceased, then the grandfathers were required to do so. If they too were deceased, then the mothers would give consent. I am not sure if the age of the groom or bride mattered concerning parental consent. I recall T and I having a discussion on another thread concerning what age constituted adult age. It seems to have been 25 and not 21. Nowadays, under 18, requires parental consent for marriage in Italy, as far as I know.

Personally I have never seen a marriage act worded the way the ones from your town are. I do have one ancestral record from a Sicilian town in which the groom was 27 and the bride was 29. The marriage took place in 1871, also post the unification of Italy. There is no mention of parental consent anywhere on the document, and only the bride's father was deceased.

Peg

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby DebiHarbuck » 15 Nov 2010, 11:51

What is the sentence in the veribage at the bottom that discusses consent? (I'd like to be able to suss that out going forward.)
Roccanova/Magistra/Rubertone/Paduano of Craco, Matera, Basilicata AND Latorraca/Cassino/Petrocelli/Peluso of Saponara di Grumento (now Grumento Nova) & Moliterno, Potenza, Basilicata

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 12:30

Al matrimonio sudetto e`stato prestato il consenso dalla madre dello sposo

non avendolo potuto prestare il padre di questo perche` morto

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 12:52

come risulta should be part of the above section of the sentence-

the sentence means:

to the above matrimony is made available the consent of the mother of the groom as a result of not having been able to make it (it refers to the consent of the father of the groom) available because the father of this (groom) is dead

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby liviomoreno » 15 Nov 2010, 13:56

Let me give my 2 cents.

Al matrimonio sudetto e`stato prestato il consenso dalla madre dello sposo

non avendolo potuto prestare il padre di questo perche` morto come risulta ed è spiegato dall'atto di richiesta delle pubblicazioni


to the above matrimony is given the consent of the mother of the groom, the father not being able to give the consent since he was dead as it appears and is explained in the marriage banns request

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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby liviomoreno » 15 Nov 2010, 13:58

liviomoreno wrote:Let me give my 2 cents.

Al matrimonio sudetto e`stato prestato il consenso dalla madre dello sposo

non avendolo potuto prestare il padre di questo perche` morto come risulta ed è spiegato dall'atto di richiesta delle pubblicazioni


to the above matrimony is given the consent of the mother of the groom, the father not being able to give the consent since he was dead as it appears and is explained in the marriage banns request

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maestra36
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Re: Double Check Me, Please?

Postby maestra36 » 15 Nov 2010, 14:05

Thanks so much, Livio. I was hoping you would look over my translation and make any corrections.
Peg


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