Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other?

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Pigman
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Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other?

Postby Pigman » 04 Jul 2011, 18:36

The following document is in the old records of St. Martial de Gimel in France but I cannot get a very good translation from Google translate. I have tried translating from Latin, Italian and French but some words don't seem to work from anything. Can someone help with this? I am trying to find out if Lomicello was the ancestral home of the Pigmon family.

S^quitur Sanxti Augustini parrochia.
D'à MêygSLJijas debent 7 sext. sil. ad par.

Sequitur parrochia d'à Correza.
D'à Bohjssa d'à Correua debent 4 sext. sili. ad par.

Sequiixir parrochia Sancti Martialis.

D'à Maleyra d'à Sen Marsal. debent 4 sext. sili. ad par. et 4 sexl. ave. ad par. Item in décima Sancti Martialis 3 sext. siti. ad par. qtios solvit Ebolus de Plas, miles, in domo sua quam habet apud diclinn locum S. Martialis.

mansus de Tozat aux Pradeux (en marge : aliks de Pradeux), in parrochia S. Martialis, fuit acquisitus a Petro Durandij de Gimelto, lomicello. in quo manso dictus elee mos. Tutel. percipiL 2 niodia sili. et 6 sext. silig; totum ad mensuram de Gimello.

ïl. 50 solidos turonenses talibus terminis olvendig; vide-licet in tnense augusti 15 sol. turon. in festo S. Andreae oppostoU; 25 sol. turon. in mense martii, 10 sol. tur. quos recipit ille qui distribuit anniversaria eclesiae Tutel. pro anima Bernardi Avalez; item in pascha ova; et in ascensiooe Domini ova el caseos ; in nativitate Beati Joannis Baptist cE idem. It. in augusto gallos; it. in natale Domini gallinas; it alla servitia hominum et bonum et fœni et palete el aliarum rerum. Mansus iste acquisitus fuit cum omnibus pertînentiis siuis, et cum terra illa quœ vulgariter dicitur lo linea de Pigmon et cum omni dominio ac juris-dictione

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Lucap » 04 Jul 2011, 23:06

You must upload the picture: it's the only way we can help you.
L.

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Pigman » 04 Jul 2011, 23:39

I found this on p. 274 of "Bulletin de la Société scientifique, historique et archéologique de la Corrèze"

Here is the link:
archive.org/stream/bulletindelasoc97unkngoog/bulletindelasoc97unkngoog_djvu.txt

It occured to me that it may be written in Piedmontese. It will translate somewhat using Google translate into English from Latin and from Italian but not very well at all from French.

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby johnnyonthespot » 04 Jul 2011, 23:46

The "text" version of books posted to that site are nearly always severely corrupted, especially if the original language was not English.

You might have better luck if you try the "See Other Formats" button on the left side of the window and then click "Read Online".

Looks like French to me. :)
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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Pigman » 04 Jul 2011, 23:51

This link will take you to the book where it is photocopied.
The references to Lomicello are on P.274 of the book
archive.org/stream/bulletindelasoc97unkngoog#page/n8/mode/2up

Thanks

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby johnnyonthespot » 04 Jul 2011, 23:54

I think this is the page in question:

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Pigman » 04 Jul 2011, 23:58

Yes that's it! If you guys can help me understand this it will make my day!

Thanks

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby PippoM » 05 Jul 2011, 08:09

It seems to be half Latin and half some French/piedmontese dialect.
If you go back to page 261, a note states "ce patois limousin, mélé de Latin, doit remonter vers 1300". Now, I don't speak French, but in some northern areas of Italy, near to France, "patois" is a dialect. So this should be a transcription of XIV century document.
Anyway, I read "domicello" (not "lomicello"), that was a noblety title, as you can find by Google.
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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Pigman » 05 Jul 2011, 17:39

Thanks Pippo M,

I see what you mean. It is Domicello but referring to a Peter Durandij who I think is purchasing the property. I am most interested in the last sentence where it refers to Lo Vignal de Pigmon. I looked up Vignal and in old French it seems to mean vinyard if I am right??

Additionally I have found reference to Pymon as being the Prince of Piedmont. It seems the "g" is often dropped especially before an "n" and I thing before the "m" also is various languages as it is either silent or pronounced as a "j".

From: THE DIARY OF HENRY M A C H Y N,
CITIZEN AND MERCHANT-TAYLOR OF LONDON,
FROM A. D. 1550 TO A.D. 1563.



The xxix day of Juin, the wyche was sant Peter and Powlles
day, was a fayre at Westmynster abbay ; and ther was a goodly
pressessyon, and after masse ; and ther the prynse of Pymon and
dyvers Spaneards, and hard messe in kyng Henry the vij
chapelle.
http://www.archive.org/stream/publicati ... d_djvu.txt

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Re: Is this document written in Ladino, Old Occitan or other

Postby Pigman » 07 Jul 2011, 21:30

PippoM wrote:It seems to be half Latin and half some French/piedmontese dialect.
If you go back to page 261, a note states "ce patois limousin, mélé de Latin, doit remonter vers 1300". Now, I don't speak French, but in some northern areas of Italy, near to France, "patois" is a dialect. So this should be a transcription of XIV century document.
Anyway, I read "domicello" (not "lomicello"), that was a noblety title, as you can find by Google.


I agree with you that is seems to be mixed with old Latin and Old French and possibly some other dialect. Any corrections are greatly welcomed! Here is the best translation I could come up with:


From: Latin
To: English

He goes to St. Martial diocese of the Holy

From the D'maleyra d'or from the Marsalis, they should be the sixth 4. Silius. to the even. the sixth and 4. Ave. to the even. Also in the sixth tenth of the Holy Martial 3. Silius. to the even. MORE Ebolus of whom he answers, a soldier, in his own house which it has in the said place of St. Martial.

It. Tozat aux Pradeux of Manlius (en margin: Pradeux elsewhere) in the diocese of St. Martial, was acquired last by Peter, of Gimell, domicello. I remained in which the said alms. Care, perceives Silius, 2 ways. the sixth and 6. WHEAT FLOUR. to the whole measure of Gimell.


It. Such commitment to resolving the terms of Tours 50 shillings; to wit, the sun in the month of August 15. Turoni. the feast of St. Andrew appostoli: 25 Turoni the sun. in the month of March, the sun 10. be. anniversary of the churches of whom receives the one who distributed defense against them. Avalez for the soul of Bernard and again at Easter - eggs, and eggs and cheese at the ascension decrease in the birth of John the Baptist Blessed are the same. It. August in the Gauls; it. hens in the Nativity of the Lord; it. bouum of hay, straw, and the slaves of men, and other things and other things. Manlius was acquired this with all its appurtenances, and with that land which is said to commonly called Pigmon Vignal and with the entire dominion and jurisdictions.

Sequitur Parrochia Sancti Martialis

D'a maleyra d'a sen marsal, debent 4 sext. sili. ad par. et 4 sext. ave. ad par. Item in decima Sancti Martialis 3 sext. sili. ad par. quos solvit Ebolus de plas, miles, in domo sua quam habet apud dictum locum S. Martialis.

It. Mansus de Tozat aux Pradeux (en margin : alias de Pradeux) in Parrochia S. Martialis, fuit acquisitus a Petro Durandi, de Gimello, domicello. in quo manso dictus eleemos. Tutel, percipit 2 modia sili. et 6 sext. silig. totum ad mensuram de Gimello.

It. 50 solidos turonenses talibus terminis solvendis; videlicet in mense augusti 15 sol. turon. in festo S. Andreae appostoli; 25 sol turon. in mense martii, 10 sol. tur. quos recipit ille qui distribuit anniversaria eclesiae Tutel. Pro anima Bernardi Avalez; item in Pascha Ova; et in ascensione Dimini ova et caseos; in nativitate Beati Joannis Baptistae idem. It. in augusto gallos; it. in Natale Domini gallinas; it. alia servitia hominum et bouum et foeni et Paleae et aliarum rerum. Mansus iste acquisitus fuit cum omnibus pertinentiis suis, et cum terra illa quae vulgariter dicitur lo Vignal de Pigmon et cum omni dominio ac jurisdictione.


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