Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
User avatar
defilip1
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 16:16
Location: Palatine, IL (Chicago Illinois area) USA

Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby defilip1 » 14 Jul 2011, 02:38

I'm having a bit of difficult figuring out the attached Registro Matrimoni for a Benedetto Cavaleri. Any help would be much appreciated.

Of course every time I try to upload an attchment I do something wrong. So here is the URL.

https://www.familysearch.org/search/ima ... 8488_00987

The entry of interest is the first full entry. It has a " # 2 - 1" in the right margin.

Thanks all!

User avatar
Lucap
Master
Master
Posts: 751
Joined: 16 Feb 2008, 16:27
Location: Terni - Italy

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby Lucap » 15 Jul 2011, 00:36

Not easy to read. It's written in old sicilian: I'll try a transcription, then I hope someone else will give you a translation if you can't understand it.
In that period (1536) there wasn't the duty (for priests) to fill holy registers, because it was before the "Sacro Concilio Tridentino", so you are very lucky to have these documents!

"Ihesus
Li inguaiari et spunsari di lu primo
di setembre p(resent)e m(illesim)o(?) 1536
La simana di Don ... ... ...
per spusarci la figlia di Ant(onio) Ruffo muglera di Beneditto
Cavaleri ..."

Sorry, It's not so much!

User avatar
defilip1
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 16:16
Location: Palatine, IL (Chicago Illinois area) USA

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby defilip1 » 18 Jul 2011, 00:55

First let me thank you. Then let me agree with you. I am EXTREMELY lucky. It is almost unimaginable that I have been able to trace my ancestry this far back. Let me review what you have written and let us see if I can formulate a reasonably intellegent response! Louis

User avatar
defilip1
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 16:16
Location: Palatine, IL (Chicago Illinois area) USA

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby defilip1 » 18 Jul 2011, 21:44

Let us try to unwind this a little bit at a time.

1. What is the symbol at the beginning of many of the entries that looks like a lower case "p"? What does it mean? I treat it like "Io" in Italian or "I" in English. Is this correct?
2. Older "matrimoni" entries take the form where the female is mentioned first and the male second. However, most, but not all, entries at this time period (1536) take a form where these are reversed, male first, female second. The female is often a "generic" offspring of a man (no given name) but sometimes has a name! For the entry under discussion, it is female then male. The form would be: "p" spusari [= joined in marrage] la figla [figlia] di [the daughter of] and then comes the name of her father. The daughter is "generic" with no apparent "nome". Here, the name of the father is something like "lu Ruffau" Sicilian [not Italian]. I have found that in the older Sicilian documents, "o" is replaced with "u" [for example Lo Re would be Lu Re]. So this is then "Lo Ruffao" upon Italianization. But see end of item "3", below. The next word would not be "muglera" or wife of Benedetto as it refers to the current marriage, but some different relationship. Thoughts here?
3. There is usually a "cu" with a line over the "u", as in "cŭ" or "cū", connecting to whom the second party is. But the "U" does not always have a line (ran out of ink???). I do not know the exact word [help please!] but I interpret this as equivalent to the French "con" meaning "with", especially since Sicilians in this time period do not like writing the letter "n". See the very next entry as an example, for the marriage of So-and-so di puglisi "cŭ" (with) pha (Philippa) figlia di Cola so-and-so [daughter of Cola so-and-so]. This therefore makes "Lu Raffau" suspect since the "cŭ" is missing. Is it really "Lu Raff" or "Lu Ruff" "Lu Ruffa" etc., and then "cu"?

That is enough for now. I find this extremely interesting and I hope you do too. Thoughts, thoughts, thoughts, any and all, please. Thanks! Louis
ŭ ū

User avatar
Lucap
Master
Master
Posts: 751
Joined: 16 Feb 2008, 16:27
Location: Terni - Italy

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby Lucap » 18 Jul 2011, 23:03

Give me some days for an answer (I'm on holday ;) )

User avatar
Lucap
Master
Master
Posts: 751
Joined: 16 Feb 2008, 16:27
Location: Terni - Italy

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby Lucap » 18 Jul 2011, 23:10

Can you understand me if I answer you in italian?

User avatar
defilip1
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 16:16
Location: Palatine, IL (Chicago Illinois area) USA

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby defilip1 » 18 Jul 2011, 23:22

The only thing worse than my Italian is my Sicilian! However, if you use very short sentences I may be able to understand, at least with the help of Google translate. So give it a try and I will try not to embarass myself. Enjoy your holiday! Godetevi la vostra vacanza!

Using google translate:

L'unica cosa peggiore il mio italiano è la mia Sicilia! Tuttavia, se si utilizza frasi molto brevi che possono essere in grado di comprendere, almeno con l'aiuto di Google Translate. Quindi fare un tentativo e cercherò di non mettere in imbarazzo me stesso.

User avatar
Lucap
Master
Master
Posts: 751
Joined: 16 Feb 2008, 16:27
Location: Terni - Italy

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby Lucap » 18 Jul 2011, 23:50

Non sono siciliano e non ho moltissima confidenza con i documenti del '500 per cui prendi quello che ti dico come una mia opinione e non come una cosa certa.
Non essendoci ancora l'obbligo, per i sacerdoti, di redigere i regitri sacramentali, la motivazione che poteva spingere ad una compilazione metodica degli stessi poteva essere soltanto una: il denaro. Vedo delle cifre alla fine di ogni riga: secondo me sono i soldi riscossi dal sacerdote per la celebrazione del sacramento. Tra l'altro c'è sempre riportato il nome del sacerdote che sopraintende alle funzioni religiose in quella settimana (e ogni settimana il nome cambia). La questione di riportare sempre il nome del padre della sposa potrebbe dipendere dal fatto che il costo del matrimonio poteva essere (sempre secondo me) a carico di quest'ultimo. Infine la "p" ad inizio di ogni riga la interpreto come l'abbreviazione della parola "per", mentre quello che tu leggi come "cū" dovrebbe essere la parola latina "cum" (con in italiano), considerando che anche i documenti in lingua volgare contenevano spesso commistioni con il latino e il modo di abbreviare era proprio quello di un segno ¯ sopra la parola troncata, come nel caso di cū.
Nel caso specifico credo che tu abbia ragione per la parola "lu" che io avevo interpretato con l'abbreviazione di Ant(onio) e che invece sembra essere riportato due righe sotto, dove dice "la simana di Don Ant(onio) Di Ferro(?)..."
A questo punto il testo dovrebbe essere:
"Ihesus
Li inguaiari et spunsari di lu primo
di setembre p(resent)e m(illesim)o(?) 1536
La simana di Don ... ... a dì 3 di setembre
per spusarci la figlia di Lu Ruffu ... di Benedito
Cavaleri ... _______________________ # (simbolo della moneta, forse il tarì?) 2-10
La simana di Don Antonio di Ferro a dì
7 di setembre
etc. etc"

User avatar
defilip1
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 36
Joined: 16 Jan 2009, 16:16
Location: Palatine, IL (Chicago Illinois area) USA

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby defilip1 » 21 Jul 2011, 03:17

Thanks! I'll go over this in the next few days. Ciao. Louis

frankruffa
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 21 Feb 2015, 01:52

Re: Handwriting / translation help, Cavaleri

Postby frankruffa » 21 Feb 2015, 02:02

I would suggest interpreting the word "lu' as the Sicilian dialect article for 'the'. While "Lu" with a capital "L" may be part of the formal name (as in Da Vinci, De Sensi);however, I'm not entirely sure of the latter unless I see it in a broader context


Return to “Italian language, handwriting , script & translations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Yahoo [Bot] and 2 guests