Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

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MaryLF
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Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 28 Aug 2011, 20:53

I have a letter written to my grandfather (Luciano A. DelSignore) in 1932 by an attorney in Pico, Frosinone, Italy in 1932 regarding the disposition of the property of my grandmother’s adopted mother (Signora Carnevale) after her death.

My grandmother , Luisa Carnevale DelSignore (born ~1893) was adopted from an orphanage in Rome by a Carnevale family from Pico. The Carnevales had a natural son, Giovanni, who died in Pittsfield, Massachusetts, USA in the mid-1920s. My grandmother never mentioned any other (adopted) siblings.

I can understand some of the words in this letter, but not enough to figure out what happened to Signora Carnevale’s property, etc. I’m also having trouble reading the writing and cannot make out the names of the people involved…for example, I cannot figure out the first name of Signora Carnevale, etc. What does the "Ma" between names mean?

Is there anyone who can translate this letter for me? My grandmother raised me and often mentioned that her property was taken from her???? I think that this letter may shed some light on what happened, so I would appreciate any help that I can receive.

Unfortunately, I can't upload the letter...get an error message saying that the "board attachment quota has been reached." Suggestions? Thank you in advance.

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby wldspirit » 29 Aug 2011, 06:23

You can use imageshack.com to upload your letter, it's free, and many of our members use it.
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Re: Need Help Translating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 29 Aug 2011, 15:47

Thank you for the suggestion, wldspirit...I uploaded the letter to ImageShack.com.

Here's the link: http://profile.imageshack.us/user/pico25/

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby PippoM » 31 Aug 2011, 14:38

Let's do it little by little...

Dear colleague,
I called Mrs. Carroccia Ma(ria) Carmine, and I got complete info about the property of Carnevale Giovanni of the late Angelo, and related matters, so know I can tell you what follows:
1) When Giovanni Carnevale died, his heirs were for the 2/3 his wife living there (I suppose “in the USA”), and for 1/3 his maternal aunt Ma(ria) Carmine Carnevale of the late Giovanni, the last still living, and resident in Pico. And that comes from the rules 715, 755 of italian civil law
2) Profit of heredity is:
• £. 6000 accounted at bank
• Land in Torricella 70 “are” (7000 m2)
• Land in Colleiodice 2,51 “are” (251 m2)
• House in Pico, vico (narrow street) Bianco, of two little rooms
3) Maria Carmine Carnevale, with the acts of notary Grossi of October 15th, and November 5th, 1930, sold to Maria Carmela Carroccia her 1/3.
4) By act of notary Grossi of November 1st, 1931, the administrator (of the heredity) M. Carmela Carroccia, sold for herself and for the heirs the land in Torricella to Giovanna Del Signore (related ?) by £. 3000. On November 29th, she also sold the house in Vico Bianco to Mrs. Del Signore by £. 2000; in the end, she sold the land in Colleiodice to Angelo Carnevale by £. 300
As a consequence of what above, the heir there living (in the USA) cleared £.3433, that is, the whole gain, apart from 1/3.
As it also turned out, £.6000 (of the bank) were fully sent there by the administrator, with no consideration of the rights of the other heir M.Carmine Carnevale"

Quite puzzling, till now. It seems that the administrator of the property, bought one third from the other heir (and that "smells bad"), and then sold all to some buyers. I suppose your GM thought the price was not right...Moreover, the lawyer says one heir was "la moglie costà residente" that is "his wife, living there". From what you say, I'd expect him to say "your wife, living there" or "his sister, living there". I hope you understand what I mean...
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

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Re: Need Help Translating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 31 Aug 2011, 23:09

Pippo,

Thank you so very much for helping me with this letter!

I’m trying to square what you indicate is in the letter with the family story -- Some of the pieces of the puzzle fit, but other pieces don’t make sense to me and I may never know the answers:

Inheritance
  • It appears that my GM (adopted by Giovanni’s parents) was never an heir. According to the letter, Giovanni’s estate passed 2/3 to his wife (in the USA) and 1/3 to his maternal aunt, and that this chain of inheritance was based on Rules 715 & 755 of Italian Civil Law and not a will?
  • Since my GM was not a blood relative to Giovanni, perhaps she was not eligible to inherit according to Italian law? If that’s the case, I wonder why my GM thought that she was to receive a portion of the proceeds of the sale of the property?
  • Given that the estate was fully accounted for: 2/3 to Giovanni‘s wife in the USA and 1/3 to his aunt (later purchased by Maria Carmine Carroccia), I don’t see how there could be another heir…so, I’m puzzled by the lawyer’s reference to “la moglie costà residente” and wonder if he’s referring to Giovanni’s wife?
Administrator & Property Buyer
  • The woman who is named as the administrator (Maria Carmine Carroccia) has a similar name to the person listed on one of my GF’s (Luciano DelSignore) army documents from WWI -- that name is Carmina Carroccia DelSignore, and I believe that she was my GF’s mother. If the administrator was my GF’s mother, I wonder why the lawyer didn’t use the last name DelSignore in the letter?
  • Giovanna Designore is, I think, my GF’s sister.
    Note: I’ve made a connection with a professional genealogical researcher from Angel Communications (http://angelresearch.wordpress.com/) who specializes in province of Frosinone…I think that her research might help with understanding exactly who Maria Carmine Carroccia and Giovanna DelSignore are in relation to my GF.
Other Documentation
  • I have another letter from someone in Pico to my GF who is telling him something about the property and seems to be explaining something about my GM “not receiving anything.” I’m going to try and post that letter soon.

Thanks again for your help.

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby uantiti » 01 Sep 2011, 11:32

Laws about rights of adopted children changed a lot in the years in Italy and you refer to something that happened more than 80 years ago. People who are left out of inheritance always think that somebody else took their part. Few times they are right and many times they don't know what the law says. If you just want to know who was right then you should find the Civil Code used in 1930. I believe adopted children didn't have same rights as blood relatives. If you wanted to file an appeal the term is, I think, 20 years from when the death occurred......

MaryLF wrote: If the administrator was my GF’s mother, I wonder why the lawyer didn’t use the last name DelSignore in the letter? [/list]
In Italy women don't change their name when getting married so the lawyer used her maiden name.

Ada

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 01 Sep 2011, 15:21

Thank you, Ada. I didn't know that women keep their maiden name in Italy. Also, I will see if I can find the Italian Civil Code used in 1930s on the internet...good idea!

My only interest in pursuing all of this is to understand this piece of my GM's history and the role that her in-laws may have played in it.

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby PippoM » 02 Sep 2011, 08:05

Something is not clear to me...did you know Giovanni was married?
Was the letter written to your GF? Well, it's not easy for me to express in English, but I try...By the way the lawyer writes, it seems that the person who had written to him (that is, your GF) did it in the name of the American heir (that is, Giovanni's wife), NOT in the name of your GM. So, this puzzles me a lot...Or, when the lawyer writes "la moglie" does not mean Giovanni's wife, but "your (yous GF's) wife".
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

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Re: Need Help Translating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 03 Sep 2011, 02:21

Pippo,

Yes, I did know that Giovanni was married. You make a good point about questioning who the letter was intended for…I assumed that the letter was written to my GF since it was one of 3 that he saved along with a few other papers from his service in the Italian Army.

Here is the link to the second letter that mentions the property…maybe it holds the answer…If you have time, would you be able to translate this letter?
http://www.keepandshare.com/doc/3112781/mystery-letter-pdf-august-31-2011-9-30-pm-902k?da=y

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby PippoM » 05 Sep 2011, 14:25

This letter was written in 1928, while the other is of 1932.
It is from a Giovanni (I can't read the surname) to Luciano (who should be your GF), and often mentions a Luisella (who should be your GM).
In summary, he says
"I'm sorry I did not write before, but I had to get all the info you needed.
Luisella does not result to have been legitimated by Angelo Carnevale, in any documents, nor at the Commune offices.
She only can ask to be paid for the work she did in the house of Angelo, who raised her.
His wife represents 1/3 of the property, that belongs to her by the law.
About (his) debts that you pay, you have to get a receipt from the people you pay; then his wife will have to recognize it by a "public act" that you can do in the USA: (stating that) as you paid ... Lire for the debts of the late Carnevale Giovanni, and to pay ... Lire to Luisella, as she (the wife) doesn't have other means to pay the duns, she sells to Luisella or to you the land and the house for the amount of ... Lire; so you could send this act to your mother, and that would be paid (?) to the mortgage, and you would be OK about what you paid and still have to pay.
But if his wife is pregnant, and some child would be born, all would be different, as the heredity would be of his/her, who must be protected, and so you should (in the future) prove the interests of the payment by an act.
Greetings, etc etc."
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby PippoM » 05 Sep 2011, 14:35

The language of the letter is not so intelligible, as he generally "writes like he speaks". I understand that
-Luciano and Luisella paid for Giovanni's debts (may be he was ill, or something like that)
-To get back the money, they wanted to get from his wife her part of land and house
-A few years later, (as we read in the other letter) they found out that the administrator had sold everything, and sent money to Giovanni's wife (now, I wonder if she gave them back their money, but I suppose she didn't)
-He also writes about a mortgage, never mentioned before...
May be something more cold come out if we could read the contracts of sale.
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Re: Need Help Translating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 06 Sep 2011, 00:30

Pippo,

Thank you, thank you, thank you! The puzzle pieces are coming together.

We now seem to have confirmation that my GM was "taken in" by the Carnevale family, and not officially adopted by them. It is also interesting that the letter says that my GM was could claim compensation for work done Angelo's house...I wonder if compensation to children "taken in" is included in the Italian Civil Code of 1865?

Yes, it rings a bell that Giovanni had been ill prior to his death...I will confirm this fact on my next trip to Pittsfield, MA. And, it makes sense that my GM & GF would have paid Giovanni's debts...at the time of his death, his wife had two small children from a previous marriage and she did not have the $$$.

I think that I now have enough information to make some "educated" assumptions about what likely occurred to cause problems between my GM and her in-laws & my GF and his mother and sister(in Pico)...Your summary is right on the mark...no money from the property ever came back to my GM & GF. And, in fact, it appears like my GF's mother and sister positioned themselves to profit from the situation...This is all (unfortunately) consistent with family legend.

Yes, it would be interesting to see the sale documents for the house and land...perhaps I can request them from the town of Pico.

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby Italysearcher » 06 Sep 2011, 08:06

Sale documents would be on file in the archives of the 'notaio' not in the Comune. They would know who sold and who bought but not the details that would be on the purchase document.
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Re: Need Help Translating Letter from 1932

Postby MaryLF » 06 Sep 2011, 17:04

Italysearcher wrote:Sale documents would be on file in the archives of the 'notaio' not in the Comune. They would know who sold and who bought but not the details that would be on the purchase document.

Thanks for the info, Ann. So, the notaio archives for property records would be kept at the province level in Frosinone?

Does anyone know about the existence of a centralized database that has property records for all of Italy? [I found mention of it on a Web site, but no name or link.]

Mary

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Re: Need Help Tranlating Letter from 1932

Postby Italysearcher » 06 Sep 2011, 19:13

Some are in Frosinone but the ones I have seen are very old, 1400's etc. or in Cassino at the Tribunale I think.
There is a centralized database that a lawyer Anthony Alioto has access to. Italianlandfinder is the site but be aware there is a charge for his services.
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ANNOYING THE SAINTS - Stories of my Life in Italy. http://www.lulu.com/content/paperback-b ... ly/7731505


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