Death record help

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
8 posts • Page 1 of 1

Death record help

Postby bvbellomo » 06 Sep 2012, 17:41

Attached is the death record of my 5th great grandfather, Francesco LiPani. Unfortunately, this is the best copy I have.

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/3322562/records/LiPani%20Francesco%20Death.pdf

My family is from Polizzi Generosa, but it looks like there are other places mentioned. I would like to know where they are.

His occupation is listed as 'propierrio' or something similar, do you know what this is?

I believe his father's name is 'Stanislao LiPani', and his mothers name is 'Felice di Giovanni' and a word I can't read. Is her surname 'di Giovanni' or is her father Giovanni and the word I can't read is her surname?

I don't see any ages or dates (other than the document date '25 Jun 1822') but would be interested in knowing what they are.
bvbellomo
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 21:59

Re: Death record help

Postby erudita74 » 06 Sep 2012, 18:16

"di Giovanni" would be his mother's maiden name. Both his parents were deceased at the time of his death. His father Stanislao had been a proprietario (property owner). The word after the mother's maiden name is "conjugi" for “spouses”-sometimes written as “coniugi”-indicating that his parents had been married. Both his parents lived in the town when they were alive. He was the husband of Carmina Carto(spelling of her surname???). He was about 62 years old at the time of his death, which occurred on the 22nd of June. He had been born in Polizzi and also was a proprietario (property owner). I don’t see any other town mentioned-only the name of the district or neighborhood in the town, which looks like Santa Magiotto .
erudita74
Master
Master
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: Death record help

Postby bvbellomo » 06 Sep 2012, 19:50

Excellent work, I can't believe you can read this.

How is 'property owner' a job? Does this mean he owned enough property that he didn't need to earn a living?

His previous wife is probably Carmina Curto or Curcio, both common surnames in the town.
bvbellomo
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 21:59

Re: Death record help

Postby bvbellomo » 06 Sep 2012, 20:09

Sorry, I misread that. Caterina Curto was his wife. Was she alive at the time of his death?
bvbellomo
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 21:59

Re: Death record help

Postby erudita74 » 06 Sep 2012, 23:42

The wife, Caterina (sorry I had trouble deciphering her name correctly because of the condition of the record) was still alive when he died. Directly after his name in the record appears the word "marito" for husband. If she had predeceased him, the word would have been "vedovo" for widower. Also the word defunto (deceased) appears after his father's name and the word defunta appears after his mother's name, as each was deceased, but there is no such word appearing after his wife's name.

As to your question about what a land or property owner actually did, I am going to have to defer your question to someone else on this forum. Normally a person who owned land in the records had a title such as Don (male) and the woman (Donna) and was not a member of the lower class like a peasant. I don't see any such titles in your record though, so I really don't know what explanation to give you.
erudita74
Master
Master
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: Death record help

Postby bvbellomo » 07 Sep 2012, 19:21

Yes, I am confused by his status. He had a son named Stanislao who married a girl who listed "incogniti genitori" as her surname, so I assumed he wasn't upper class. I see mro next to his name on transposed records (I don't have originals) and mro on his son Vincenzo. I have Vincenzo's son's death record, it lists 'contadino' as both their occupations. Francesco's father Stanislao is also listed as a 'proprietario' on this record and he was dead in 1822, which is not long after peasants could even legally own land. I also assumed LiPani meant "of bread" and the family founder would have been a baker.
bvbellomo
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 21:59

Re: Death record help

Postby erudita74 » 07 Sep 2012, 23:24

The abbreviation you have seen in other records for the word "maestro" simply means that the person was a master of whatever trade in which he engaged. So you might see this word in front of an occupation such as "calzolaio" for shoemaker. Of course, if you go to a current Italian dictionary, it translates the word proprietario also as a properietor, but still an owner, but possibly of a business and not necessarily of land. I think though that, if this was the case with your ancestors, there would be some other Italian words after the word "proprietario" in the document to indicate that. In any of the Italian documents in which I have seen this occupation over the years, and I have seen many, the word proprietario has always meant that the person owned land. The person also always had the title which indicated that he was not of the peasant class.

Yes, feudalism had ended in the early 1800s and land ownership may have been possible, even for members of the peasant class, but that still doesn't really help me determine what the word "proprietario" meant in your records and what kind of work your ancestors actually did. I have ancestors from a Sicilian town who were millers and bakers. The miller may have actually owned the town's only mill, but I can only conjecture this by reading info about the history of that town, and not from the Italian records in which his occupation is listed. Even if he did own the town's only mill, he was never referred to as a "proprietario" in the records.

Possibly you should pose your question about "proprietario" under some other section of this forum, as someone else on the forum may possess some knowledge which will clear up this confusion. I'm sorry, but I really don't know what answer to give you.
erudita74
Master
Master
 
Posts: 2941
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: Death record help

Postby bvbellomo » 10 Sep 2012, 18:18

Yes, feudalism had ended in the early 1800s and land ownership may have been possible, even for members of the peasant class


Francesco LiPani was born about 1760. Even if his father Stanislao was still alive when peasants could own land and immediately bought some he'd be at least 60, and probably in his 70's or 80's. I don't see how they could list 'land owner' as both their occupations when they died. The 1811 Revelli will resolve this once I get a copy, as I will know exactly what he owned.
bvbellomo
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 100
Joined: 13 Jun 2012, 21:59


8 posts • Page 1 of 1

Return to Italian language, handwriting , script & translations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Exabot [Bot] and 1 guest

Copyright © 2014. www.ItalianGenealogy.com.