Translating a difficult atto

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Translating a difficult atto

Postby DonnaPellegrin » 23 Feb 2005, 02:07

I found an atto di nascita today on microfilm that really has me confused. My female ancestor presented the baby. The baby was given her surname. There are three lines of writing that I cannot read. I have copied the image below. The lines that I cannot read are the part of the atto where the parents names should be given. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Image[/img]
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby suanj » 23 Feb 2005, 14:56

DonnaPellegrin wrote:I found an atto di nascita today on microfilm that really has me confused. My female ancestor presented the baby. The baby was given her surname. There are three lines of writing that I cannot read. I have copied the image below. The lines that I cannot read are the part of the atto where the parents names should be given. Any help would be very much appreciated.

Image[/img]

Hi Donna, for help are better all document, but I read something:

..in Comune, la quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore antimeridiane 3.00 e minuti 10.00, del dì (giorno) 28 del corrente mese, nella casa posta in ..artigianale al numero____ , dalla sua minore con uomo celibe, ............, mi ... al riconoscimento

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Postby DonnaPellegrin » 23 Feb 2005, 16:42

Many thanks suanj,

The words that you translated tell me all that I need to know. The new Italian government did not recognize the marriage of the parents of this baby.

Thank you again. I do so appreciate your eyes.
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby suanj » 23 Feb 2005, 17:36

ok Donna
:wink: suanj
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby VaDeb » 23 Feb 2005, 23:06

Hi Donna,

I don't know what we would do without Suanj, she has a real talent for reading this old script, even horrible handwriting dosen't stop her.

I am curious, why didn't the government recognize this marriage? Was it during the time where the couple was married in the church and also had to have a civil ceremony for the government to recognize the marriage??

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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby suanj » 23 Feb 2005, 23:15

VaDeb wrote:Hi Donna,

I don't know what we would do without Suanj, she has a real talent for reading this old script, even horrible handwriting dosen't stop her.

I am curious, why didn't the government recognize this marriage? Was it during the time where the couple was married in the church and also had to have a civil ceremony for the government to recognize the marriage??

Debbie

Hi Debbie, I think, just an suggestion, that "dalla sua minore con uomo celibe" meaning from daughter in not legal age(minore= + or - as an teen ager) with an man single status... and for this wedding was necessary a special permission of the Church, the civil authorities and the consent of both parents.... if are not this permission the wedding exist not and are not, also nobody trace... also if possible an secret wedding...only in church and not in Common, but for better explanation is necessary to read all document....
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby DonnaPellegrin » 24 Feb 2005, 00:27

Suanj is my hero. I'm so grateful to have her here.

This birth was in Southern Italy in the years shortly after Italy was unified. According to Trafford Cole's book the state wasn't recognizing church marriages and there was a power struggle for a few years. When I read the atto I assumed that was the reason. But now suanj has given me more to think about. She is the best.
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby Maurizio » 25 Feb 2005, 13:48

HI.
In my opinion things are more simple. The handwriting is bad, but couldn't the word that Suanj read as "Minore" be instead "Unione"?
That would make much more sense: the sentence "She declared me that [....] from her union with an unmarried man...." should simply mean the child was born out of marriage.

In my experience, in cases like these the usual form referring to the male parent is "born of an unknown father". The fact the priest wrote "an unmarried man" could mean the priest knew the real identity of the father, or at least he was aware of the fact the father was single. So, this so particular annotation could be justified by leaving the chance to later on regularize the situation - after an eventual "shotgun wedding" -, rectifing the baptism act by adding the name of the finally uncovered natural father.

In order to solve the enigma, it would probaly be crucial to make out the following words (between "celibe" and "riconoscimento"), but that goes beyond my reading skills.

Just my two cents.
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby suanj » 25 Feb 2005, 15:14

Maurizio wrote:HI.
In my opinion things are more simple. The handwriting is bad, but couldn't the word that Suanj read as "Minore" be instead "Unione"?
That would make much more sense: the sentence "She declared me that [....] from her union with an unmarried man...." should simply mean the child was born out of marriage.

In my experience, in cases like these the usual form referring to the male parent is "born of an unknown father". The fact the priest wrote "an unmarried man" could mean the priest knew the real identity of the father, or at least he was aware of the fact the father was single. So, this so particular annotation could be justified by leaving the chance to later on regularize the situation - after an eventual "shotgun wedding" -, rectifing the baptism act by adding the name of the finally uncovered natural father.

In order to solve the enigma, it would probaly be crucial to make out the following words (between "celibe" and "riconoscimento"), but that goes beyond my reading skills.

Just my two cents.
Ciao,
Maurizio

Si Maurizio, sicuramente è "unione";
hai gli occhi migliori dei miei!
saluti, suanj
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby Maurizio » 25 Feb 2005, 15:52

Hello, Suanj *

Mah, in realtà gli occhi non sono un granchè. Però ho degli occhialacci da miope con le lenti spesse che mi aiutano un po'!
Ciao,
Maurizio

* Bello vedere un nickname familiare
Da quando Peter è stato cacciato qui non è più la stessa cosa: tutti molto più educati, per carità, ma... che noia!
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Re: Translating a difficult atto

Postby suanj » 25 Feb 2005, 20:27

Maurizio wrote:Hello, Suanj *

Mah, in realtà gli occhi non sono un granchè. Però ho degli occhialacci da miope con le lenti spesse che mi aiutano un po'!
Ciao,
Maurizio

* Bello vedere un nickname familiare
Da quando Peter è stato cacciato qui non è più la stessa cosa: tutti molto più educati, per carità, ma... che noia!

Ciao Maurizio, anche io porto gli occhiali...
comunque è piacevole anche per me ritrovarti, e concordo sulla noia... Peter dava quel mordente stuzzichevole che mi piaceva tanto...e mi manca tanto!!
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