ages

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ages

Postby bvbellomo » 24 Sep 2013, 15:50

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/2035717%20Liborio%20Albanese%20Marriage%20%201.pdf

Can anyone read the ages of the bride(Maria Anna Giresi) and her parents (Giuseppe & Antonina Lo Re)?
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Re: ages

Postby liviomoreno » 24 Sep 2013, 17:11

Maria Anna is 27
I read Giuseppe 35 and Antonina 37, but it does not make sense!
It is for sure xxxxntacinque and xxxentasette
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 24 Sep 2013, 19:23

It doesn't make sense, like Livio said, but I am reading the same ages as he did.
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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 17:48

I can only come up with 3 possible explanations:

1) The ages are all rough guesses made without considering the other people involved. E.g. she might actually be 25, her father is 40 and her mother is 41.

2) These are not her biological parents, and might be people who raised her, her godparents, etc.

3) We are reading the script wrong.
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 19:37

bvbellomo wrote:I can only come up with 3 possible explanations:

1) The ages are all rough guesses made without considering the other people involved. E.g. she might actually be 25, her father is 40 and her mother is 41.

2) These are not her biological parents, and might be people who raised her, her godparents, etc.

3) We are reading the script wrong.


As to deciphering the script, you have the groom's parents' ages and can clearly see that the beginning letters of the ages of the parents of the bride do not match either of these. So her parents were not in their 50s or 70s. The beginning of the bride's parents' ages also does not look like quaranta or sessanta, so that would eliminate them being in their 40s or 60s. If in their 80s, the word should start with the letter o. The problem is that only church records, and gaining access to their baptism records, would solve the problem of determining their actual ages. These, however, are are not online and probably would be difficult to obtain, if they have not been microfilmed.

As to the law concerning ages at marriage, I only know that in 1819, #152 of the code of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, dictated that a male could not contract marriage until he reached the age of 14 and a female until she reached the age of 12. I don't know, however, what the law was previous to this when her parents would have married, to give you an idea as to how old they could have each been at their own marriage or when she was born.

Have you tried to locate death records for the the bride or her parents? I know that death records are the least reliable as far as ages are concerned, but you might get some kind of clue from them anyway.

Also, did she have any children from this marriage, even though she might have married in her late 30s? If so, see what her age is on the children's birth records. Again the ages may not be accurate, but you might get a closer approximation of her age.

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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 20:42

oops, did not mean to say, "even though she was in her late 30s." The bride was only 27. I tried to edit that part of my comment out, but it was too late to do so. I still think you should try to find records for any children she might have had though to see her ages in those records.

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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 21:23

erudita74 wrote:As to deciphering the script, you have the groom's parents' ages and can clearly see that the beginning letters of the ages of the parents of the bride do not match either of these. So her parents were not in their 50s or 70s.


Assuming I am correct about the groom's parents' ages, yes.

erudita74 wrote:The beginning of the bride's parents' ages also does not look like quaranta or sessanta, so that would eliminate them being in their 40s or 60s. If in their 80s, the word should start with the letter o. The problem is that only church records, and gaining access to their baptism records, would solve the problem of determining their actual ages. These, however, are are not online and probably would be difficult to obtain, if they have not been microfilmed.


I did not consider the parents could be in their 80's. If I have the right death records (doubtful, see below), they are much younger.


erudita74 wrote:As to the law concerning ages at marriage, I only know that in 1819, #152 of the code of the Kingdom of the Two Sicilies, dictated that a male could not contract marriage until he reached the age of 14 and a female until she reached the age of 12. I don't know, however, what the law was previous to this when her parents would have married, to give you an idea as to how old they could have each been at their own marriage or when she was born.


The issue is not whether they could be legally married, but whether it is more likely an 8 year old boy got a 10 year old girl pregnant, or it is more likely that we are misreading the records. Also, if I have the right death records and they followed the Sicilian naming rules, their first daughter would be "Rosalia" and their second would be "Francesca", making her a third child or later.

erudita74 wrote:Have you tried to locate death records for the the bride or her parents? I know that death records are the least reliable as far as ages are concerned, but you might get some kind of clue from them anyway.


Here is the death record of the bride:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/Giresi%20Maria%20Anna%20death.jpg

I believe this says 60, making her born in 1810. It could say 70. Notice her father's name is "Gandolfo" where it was "Giuseppe" on the marriage.

erudita74 wrote:Also, did she have any children from this marriage, even though she might have married in her late 30s [corrected later]? If so, see what her age is on the children's birth records. Again the ages may not be accurate, but you might get a closer approximation of her age.

Erudita


Based on transcriptions, I believe Maria Anna Giresi and Liborio Albanese had 9 children. Unfortunately, transcriptions do not have ages.

The whole reason I looked more closely at this is I believe I may have a wrong death records for her parents and grandparents.

Here is the death record I have for the father of the bride:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Giresi%20Giuseppe/Death.jpg

Notice both his parents are dead, and his mother's surname is "Pucci". This says he is "cinqanta circa", about 50, born about 1782. Read the age of the witness, Gioachino Giresi, which looks like the same letter we are having trouble with in our marriage. If the other witness is Antonino Potestio, I have a death record for him born about 1800, making this letter a 't'

Her is what I believe to be the mother of the groom:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Giresi%20Giuseppe/Antonia%20David%20%20Death.jpg This clearly says "settanta", making her born about 1780. Notice her surname has changed from "Lo Re" to "David" with "Lo Re" being her mother's surname.

I believe the bride's mother's mother died in 1829. If so, her surname is "David", her husband's is "Lo Re" and her mother's surname is also "David"!

I believe the bride's father's mother died in 1837. This is very much in conflict with the bride's father's death certificate showing her already dead. Her surname here is 'Curcio' not 'Pucci'.

BTW - if you remember a previous post I wrote about a Carmela with a surname that changed from Colino to Farella, this was the groom's mother! Perhaps there was some custom in this town, time or these families that a women took her mother's surname when her father died or something similar?
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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 22:17

So here is what I come up with for names of people I believe to be the same person:

wife of Andrea Albanese:
Carmela Sausa 1830
Carmela Mallone, 1833, 1840, 67
Carmela Farella 1842, 1845, 1850, 67
Carmela Colino 1828

wife of Giuseppe Giresi
Antonia Lo Re 1828
Antonina David 1821, 26, 1827, 1850
Antonina Lo Re 1824, 1828, 1832


wife of Gandolfo Giresi:
Rosalia Pucci 1832
Rosalia Curcio 1837, 1852, 1853, 1854 (twice)
Rosaria Curcio 1821

father-in-law of Giuseppe Giresi
Innocenzio Lo Re: 1829
Innocenzio David: 1850, 1855

mother-in-law of Giuseppe Giresi
Francesca Lo Re: 1855, 1850
Francesca David: 1829

Notice we have very few first name changes, and all of those could be errors made by the person transcribing the record. We also have a few unusual surnames, Mallone, Colino, Pucci.
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 22:42

I've been trying to sort through this mess, and it is some mess. I think the death record you have for the bride is the correct one. It would make sense that she was 10 years younger or abt age 17 when she married in 1828. One of the documents she had to present for her marriage was her act of birth. You didn't post subsequent pages of the marriage act, but that would be listed on one of the pages as one of the documents she presented. In some towns, her date of birth might also been found in that part of the record. All I can say is that the clerk who wrote the record did not know how to do math and erroneously made her 10 years older than she actually was when he wrote the information on the record. I also think the parents would have been 10 years older than they are recorded in this record to have been. I still decipher the handwriting as trentacinque and trentasette, but more than likely they were 45 and 47. You yourself say that the first letter is a "t" in that other document you found.

I also think you have the correct death record for her, despite the fact that her father's first name is given as Gandolfo in that record. From Giuseppe's death record, it was his father, or the bride's paternal grandfather, who was Gandolfo, so I think the information was just erroneously reported by the two informants in her death record. I also think you have the correct death record for her father Giuseppe.

As to why the other surnames changed in the records, I really don't know. The only instances in which a female was given a mother's surname was if the father did not come forward when she was born and recognize the infant as his-that is, if she was born out of wedlock.

Personally I think the clerks in this town were careless in recording vital information. I have always been able to confirm information from subsequent records, but in this town, it just seems impossible to do.

Also, why are there no ages for the groom and bride in their children's birth records? Do you have copies of the actual records?

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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 22:44

Take a look at the death record I have for the father of the bride:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Giresi%20Giuseppe/Death.jpg

I definitely see "Pucci" if I am looking for it. But the 'C' and 'P' are similar, and there almost looks like another letter after the 'i'. It doesn't take too much imagination to believe this actually says "Curcio", especially when "Pucci" is not a name in the town, and this is the only place it appears.
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 22:49

bvbellomo wrote:Take a look at the death record I have for the father of the bride:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Giresi%20Giuseppe/Death.jpg

I definitely see "Pucci" if I am looking for it. But the 'C' and 'P' are similar, and there almost looks like another letter after the 'i'. It doesn't take too much imagination to believe this actually says "Curcio", especially when "Pucci" is not a name in the town, and this is the only place it appears.


I can tell you that the first letter is definitely not a P, as it is not formed like any other word in the document that begins with that letter. I believe the first letter is a C but the only other letters in this document are "ucci." So I read the name in this document as Cucci.

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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 22:51

erudita74 wrote:Also, why are there no ages for the groom and bride in their children's birth records? Do you have copies of the actual records?
Erudita


I do not have actual records, except for 1:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Andrea%20II/allegeti/3.jpg

This puts her birth around 1811, consistent with the idea she was 10 years younger.
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 22:55

bvbellomo wrote:
erudita74 wrote:Also, why are there no ages for the groom and bride in their children's birth records? Do you have copies of the actual records?
Erudita


I do not have actual records, except for 1:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Andrea%20II/allegeti/3.jpg

This puts her birth around 1811, consistent with the idea she was 10 years younger.



That is good. This puts her age more in the ballpark of where it should be. Are you sure there is no date of birth for her given on one of the pages of her marriage record?
I have records from other Sicilian towns where that information was written in where there was a list of documents presented for the marriage.

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Re: ages

Postby bvbellomo » 25 Sep 2013, 23:01

erudita74 wrote:I can tell you that the first letter is definitely not a P, as it is not formed like any other word in the document that begins with that letter. I believe the first letter is a C but the only other letters in this document are "ucci." So I read the name in this document as Cucci.
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Cuccia and Curcio are both names in this town, I've never seen Cucci before, Pucci appears only a few times in people born elsewhere.

Here is the rest of the marriage (that I have).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/2035717%20Liborio%20Albanese%20%20Marriage%20%202.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/2035717%20Liborio%20Albanese%20%20Marriage%20%203.pdf
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Re: ages

Postby erudita74 » 25 Sep 2013, 23:16

bvbellomo wrote:
erudita74 wrote:I can tell you that the first letter is definitely not a P, as it is not formed like any other word in the document that begins with that letter. I believe the first letter is a C but the only other letters in this document are "ucci." So I read the name in this document as Cucci.
Erudita


Cuccia and Curcio are both names in this town, I've never seen Cucci before, Pucci appears only a few times in people born elsewhere.

Here is the rest of the marriage (that I have).

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/2035717%20Liborio%20Albanese%20%20Marriage%20%202.pdf
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/3322562/records/Albanese%20Liborio/2035717%20Liborio%20Albanese%20%20Marriage%20%203.pdf


There are definitely two c's and not an r and a c in the surname in the record. You can see how the r is formed in other words in the document, as in the word "marito," for example. There is no r in the surname in this record.

On the bottom of page two, the first of the two pages you just posted, you will see the list of documents.
1. nell'atto di nascita dello sposo
2. nell'atto di nascita della sposa

Unfortunately the dates of birth are not given in this marriage record, but the spouses, as required by civil law, did present their birth acts for their marriage.

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