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Need help with "I" and "J" in records

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Need help with "I" and "J" in records

Postby say » 03 Apr 2005, 20:40

I am wondering if anyone could offer some advice/help. I am working on Nusco reords and find it difficult to tell a "I" from a "J" in the handwriting for some surnames. You can reply on this board or at say5@eathlink.net. Thank you for any help you can give me.
Sherry
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby VaDeb » 03 Apr 2005, 21:30

Hi Sherry,

If you have access to Tafford Cole's book "Italian Genealogical Records" there are examples of "i" and "j" in capital and lower case on page 220 -221.

One thing I will do is find a word that is clear and use that as an example of how that writer shapes a letter. Practice and experience helps.

Good Luck,
Debbie
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby JohnArmellino » 03 Apr 2005, 21:56

I've found one reference with respect to the use of a letter called a "long i" in triphthongs (three vowels in succession). For example, proietto/projetto; di Maio/di Majo; Boiano/Bojano. When written, the "long i" looks like the letter "j", which of course is not in the Italian alphabet. This "long i" was used quite often in the civil records of Campobasso, often interchangeably with the letter "i", but always in connection with a triphthong. However, I've noticed that - at least in the case of the word proietto - it wasn't used in all areas of Italy. To make matters more confusing, certain proper names - like Bojano and di Majo - are sometimes spelled with a "j" today. Today, from what I understand, the letter "j" is used in foreign words and called an "i lungo". Except for the one aforementioned reference, I haven't been able to learn more about the mysterious "long i".
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby suanj » 03 Apr 2005, 22:16

Hi, in many ancient italian documents, are the "long i" (J); this words and/or names with "long i"=j ( used why the sound are light various of "i", in fact are an sound of "i" many long, as "ii" ); but with the years, and so in the time, with italian modern language, the "j" become "i"; in some area this modern shape start soon,in other no, and so, the same surname, for exemple Di Majo, in some region was wrote Di Maio and in some other again Di Majo... with the time this surname are remained so also currently.. also with Bojano (correct spelling) town, that are mentioned as Bojano also currently on paginebianche, instead in some other are modernized in Boiano.....
regards, suanj
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby mfjp » 03 Apr 2005, 23:44

This page may help reading script...

http://www.comunesofitaly.org/Links/Handwriting.htm

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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby say » 04 Apr 2005, 01:27

Many thank to all of you for your help, and I am glad to know there was a reason for my confusion. I have family from Nusco that are Iuliano's, but have also heard the name Juliano exists. I also interpreted on last name as Iannantuono, but was told from another they had family as Jannantuono. When researching the records from 1809-1910, writing from person to person varies tremendously, so just when I think I've got it, I start to doubt myself again..... also, there were some who should definitely not have been permitted to write the documents...and I thought my handwriting was bad... mfjp, thank you for the link. John, I guess I am confused, if there is no "J" in the Italian language, and how can there be one in documents/surnames? I do not speak or read Italian, so forgive me for asking what may be obvious.
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby mfjp » 04 Apr 2005, 02:13

You're not kidding!!

also, there were some who should definitely not have been permitted to write the documents...and I thought my handwriting was bad...


Guess who was writing many of the records--in my ancestral town? The Mayor's sons.... and they were young... but they got better... A few of the documents had revised notations made... as Dad did edit them later...

mfjp

p.s. imagine... no white-out, no electric lighting... no BIC pens....
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby JohnArmellino » 04 Apr 2005, 02:17

First, a caveat: I ain't no linguistics expert. But I've read that the modern Italian alphabet has no letter "j" as used in native terms. Nevertheless, the letter "j" does appear in dictionaries for archaic spellings and foreign and international terms officially adopted in Italian. 150-odd years ago, the letter "long i" was used in triphthongs or when the letter "i" was combined with other vowels to form one sound. (e.g., proietto/projetto or gioiello/giojello). This sound is similar to the "y" in "yellow" or “lawyerâ€Â
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby say » 04 Apr 2005, 02:21

I have also seen some revisions in documents, and sometimes see the word "dico" (I think that is what it is) appear with the correction. I am not sure what that word means though. I am curious about the forms used. Did they have methonds to "duplicate" forms in the early 1800's? It certainly does not appear these were all hand typed individually, but I could be wrong.
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby JohnArmellino » 04 Apr 2005, 02:31

I believe that these early forms (early 1800s) were printed on a printing press. The typewriter wasn't invented and marketed until the late 1800s. In the Campobasso civil records, incorrect items were simply underlined and the correction followed. It took me a while to catch on to that.
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby suanj » 04 Apr 2005, 07:11

say wrote:I have also seen some revisions in documents, and sometimes see the word "dico" (I think that is what it is) appear with the correction. I am not sure what that word means though. I am curious about the forms used. Did they have methonds to "duplicate" forms in the early 1800's? It certainly does not appear these were all hand typed individually, but I could be wrong.
Sherry

Hi:
dico= I say
...and I read that is many confusion about italian language... perhpas this will help:

The use of "J" in italian language had various sorts... Today is abandoned to part some own names (surnames and some first name Jone or Jole or Jolanda -all females gender but very rare), have had in various periods, above all in 1600 and to first of 1900, an diffusion, in order to indicate two language's phenomena:
-the plural of final words in "io" (that become "ii" and changed in =j")
-the "i" letter in diphthong "io/ia/ie/iu".


In the Italian language of 1600 in some passage(please read the citation) of Manzoni's books (Alessandro MANZONI), we find :
-"testimonj" as plural of "testimonio" = witnesses/witness ; (currently we use "testimone"= witness; "testimoni"=witnesses);

-and "indizj" as plural of "indizio"= indications/indication..(currently we use "indizi" as plural of "indizio");


Che qualsivoglia persona, così di questa Città, come forestiera, che per due testimonj consterà esser tenuto, e comunemente riputato per bravo, et aver tal nome, ancorché non si verifichi aver fatto delitto alcuno... per questa sola riputazione di bravo, senza altri indizj, possa dai detti giudici e da ognuno di loro esser posto alla corda et al tormento, per processo informativo... et ancorché non confessi delitto alcuno, tuttavia sia mandato alla galea, per detto triennio, per la sola opinione e nome di bravo, come di sopra...
(Promessi Sposi, I)

Also in novels of Pirandello sicilian author( Luigi PIRANDELLO), we find many time the:

-"guaj" as plural of "guajo" =troubles/trouble;(currently: guai/guaio);
-"corridoj" as plural "corridojo"= corridors/corridor;(currently: corridoi/corridoio);
-"granaj" as plural of "granajo"= granaries/granary (currently: granai/granaio).


regards, suanj
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Re: Need help with "I" and "J" in record

Postby say » 04 Apr 2005, 11:46

Thank you Susan, all information is helpful and adds to the "knowledge base". I just hope it all sticks there! Thanks also for the meaing of "dico".
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