Help please with death record

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
14 posts • Page 1 of 1

Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 09 Mar 2014, 01:16

Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".

Thank you!
Attachments
scantr.jpg
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31

Re: Help please with death record

Postby AngelaGrace56 » 09 Mar 2014, 03:09

jkingb wrote:Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?
Normally first name and then middle name, but sometimes errors are made. In this case the father is Carlo Giovanni FRESCA. Maddalina was the widow of Gabriele Calcagno.

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?
What it seems to say is that she was the daughter of the late Carlo Giovanni, farmer who lived (during life time) in Noli and the late “Signora surname and name of the mother” who lived in Noli (during life time). It doesn't make sense. Someone else might expand on this and give a truer translation.

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".
Yes, I believe it refers to Noli in the province of Savona. (The "I" is definitely dotted but sometimes errors are made as well. You would need to find Maddalina's birth record to be sure.) It is saying that Maddalina was born in Noli but was living in Gassino when she died. The two towns these days are about two hours away from each other.

Thank you!
AngelaGrace56
Master
Master
 
Posts: 909
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54

Re: Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 09 Mar 2014, 03:19

Yes, it's actually "Frasca".. I had a typo -meant to write that name but wrote Calcagno instead!

The death occurred in Gassino, that is correct - where the family lived. Unfortunately, I won't be able to find her birth record, because it is too old, and Noli records aren't available online or in microfilm format at LDS.
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31

Re: Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 09 Mar 2014, 03:28

EDIT: I had a mistake/typo in question # 1. Here is the corrected version.

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Frasca or Giovanni Carlo Frasca?
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31

Re: Help please with death record

Postby AngelaGrace56 » 09 Mar 2014, 03:47

AngelaGrace56 wrote:
jkingb wrote:Thank you in advance to anybody who can help clarify 3 things about the attached death record:

1) What is generally the order of first & middle names on Italian vital records - i.e., in this instance, is the father of the deceased Carlo Giovanni Calcagno or Giovanni Carlo Calcagno?
Normally first name and then middle name, but sometimes errors are made. In this case the father is Carlo Giovanni FRASCA. Maddalina was the widow of Gabriele Calcagno.

2) Can anybody transcribe the information in the field for the mother's info? Does it mean that the mother's name was unknown not able to be recalled by the person providing the information?
What it seems to say is that she was the daughter of the late Carlo Giovanni, farmer who lived (during life time) in Noli and the late “Signora surname and name of the mother” who lived in Noli (during life time). It doesn't make sense. Someone else might expand on this and give a truer translation.

3) Is Noli a reference to Noli in the province of Savona? I am curious because this is a record from Turin, so I would expect the name of the province to be written as well as that of the commune, if in another province. There is a "Nole" in Turin, but the name in the record is clearly "Noli".
Yes, I believe it refers to Noli in the province of Savona. (The "I" is definitely dotted but sometimes errors are made as well. You would need to find Maddalina's birth record to be sure.) It is saying that Maddalina was born in Noli but was living in Gassino when she died. The two towns these days are about two hours away from each other.

Thank you!


Whoops, I typed an E instead of an A. Must be the day for typo's!
AngelaGrace56
Master
Master
 
Posts: 909
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54

Re: Help please with death record

Postby AngelaGrace56 » 09 Mar 2014, 03:56

jkingb wrote:Yes, it's actually "Frasca".. I had a typo -meant to write that name but wrote Calcagno instead!

The death occurred in Gassino, that is correct - where the family lived. Unfortunately, I won't be able to find her birth record, because it is too old, and Noli records aren't available online or in microfilm format at LDS.


Yes, that is correct, records for Noli don't seem to be on line. I checked after my initial reply to see if I could help you find the record. Someone else on the forum might have some ideas. I noticed that there are some records for Nole. Someone on the forum might suggest that it was more likely she was born there (? I don't think so though). Anyways, in the case that they did, there are marriage records on line for that town.

Angela
AngelaGrace56
Master
Master
 
Posts: 909
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54

Re: Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 09 Mar 2014, 04:38

Thanks. I did check Nole just in case (randomly picked the 1808 BMD register):

http://www.antenati.san.beniculturali.i ... ewsIndex=-

No instances of that surname in the index. So I think it's safe to assume the town is Noli in Savona. That complicates things...
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31

Re: Help please with death record

Postby liviomoreno » 09 Mar 2014, 08:45

About question #2: the name of the mother was unknown to the persons declaring the death.
The wording is "dalla fu s'ignora il cognome e nome della madre, in vita domiciliata in Noli", which translates: "the surname and the name of the deceased mother, domiciled, during her life in Noli, are not known"
User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4148
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 01:00
Location: Rome, Italy

Re: Help please with death record

Postby AngelaGrace56 » 09 Mar 2014, 09:07

liviomoreno wrote:About question #2: the name of the mother was unknown to the persons declaring the death.
The wording is "dalla fu s'ignora il cognome e nome della madre, in vita domiciliata in Noli", which translates: "the surname and the name of the deceased mother, domiciled, during her life in Noli, are not known"


Thank you Livio. This certainly makes sense now. I didn't even notice the apostrophe. There are also the words "ignaro" and "ignoto" which we see a lot in our records e.g. "padre ignoto" (father unknown). They all seem to have the same or similar meanings?

Angela
AngelaGrace56
Master
Master
 
Posts: 909
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54

Re: Help please with death record

Postby liviomoreno » 09 Mar 2014, 09:15

Usually the wording "di genitori ignoti" means that the person is a foundling. If you instead read "si ignora il nome dei genitori" it means that the person writing the act does not know the names.
User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
 
Posts: 4148
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 01:00
Location: Rome, Italy

Re: Help please with death record

Postby AngelaGrace56 » 09 Mar 2014, 09:24

liviomoreno wrote:Usually the wording "di genitori ignoti" means that the person is a foundling. If you instead read "si ignora il nome dei genitori" it means that the person writing the act does not know the names.


Oh, I see, thank you very much Livio. It becomes very clear when someone else explains it. :) I'll write it in my dictionary.

Angela
AngelaGrace56
Master
Master
 
Posts: 909
Joined: 16 Oct 2012, 10:54

Re: Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 09 Mar 2014, 09:40

Thank you both! I was thinking that the name was probably unknown to the person reporting the information. The decedent was 88 years old, so this information may have been forgotten (by even her own kids, as it appears that one of her sons is listed at the bottom)..

As for # 2, I asked because I am trying to match several records, and the first name of the decedent's father, according to another record, should be Giovanni - here Giovanni is the middle name. I have good reason to believe the records match, so I wondered if the order (first, middle) was sometimes reversed..

Noli must refer to the comune in Savona.
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31

Re: Help please with death record

Postby PippoM » 11 Mar 2014, 12:38

The order can be reversed, in the sense that up to about 1900, use was more important the documents themselves. So it might happen that someone was given name at birth, for instance, Tizio Caio, but his family called him Caio; in later documents, you might find him referenced to as Caio, or even Caio Tizio, to keep track of the original name. This is quite common above all with female names formed by Maria followed by another name (Maria Rosaria, Maria Teresa).
Giuseppe "Pippo" Moccaldi

Certificate requests and genealogical searches in Italy.
Translation of your old documents and letters.
Legal assistance for your Italian citizenship.
User avatar
PippoM
Master
Master
 
Posts: 1348
Joined: 25 Aug 2004, 00:00
Location: Roma, Italia

Re: Help please with death record

Postby jkingb » 12 Mar 2014, 06:41

Thank you for your input Pippo! It seems that even in this case (Giovanni/Carlo) a reversal occurred.
jkingb
Veteran
Veteran
 
Posts: 136
Joined: 01 Oct 2013, 19:31


14 posts • Page 1 of 1

Return to Italian language, handwriting , script & translations

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests

cron

Copyright © 2014. www.ItalianGenealogy.com.