Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

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carubia
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Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby carubia » 27 Sep 2014, 09:51

I often see in older civil records from Sicily the number 9 spelled as "novi" (and also in combinations, such as "ventinovi" or "diecinovi" (yes, it was really spelled that way)). Now, the Sicilian version of nove is indeed novi, but I rarely see other numbers written in Sicilian. Occasionally tri, a few times setti, and maybe dui once or twice. I've never seen, e.g., ottu, cincu, or quattru in civil records. So why was nove different? Could it be that the word in Italian used to be spelled this way, too? Does anyone have any insight or knowledge about this?

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nazca
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Re: Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby nazca » 27 Sep 2014, 11:28

Hi,



hi,
is not a simple answer to your question. the Italian language as taught in school is the same throughout Italy only 150 years. The Sicilian language before this time was "influenced" by the languages spoken in the Kingdoms of which Sicily was a part of (Latin language,Arabic, French, Spanish and so on) . How to write a word or a number, as well as depended on the degree of education of the person even if, for example, if he was a parish priest (because he had studied Latin lifetime) or employee of the municipality. It was therefore possible to write a number closer to the Latin tongue: number 19 is in italian "diciannove " in latin "undeviginti" but 19th is "decimonono", in sicilian "diciannovi" or "riciannove" (it depends in the province you live in!). In my opinion sicilian Language is not poor or old but a "melting pot" of languages.
i hope that this helped you.

best regards.

Vincenzo
I'm searching lost relatives and descendant of my greatgrandfather Vincenzo Genualdi (or Gennaldi or Genuardi) and my greatgrandmother Concetta Davola (their sons: Angela, Carmela, Antonio, Bartolomeo, Ernesto, Simone, Riccardo, Maria) went in Chicago,Ill., and New Orleans, in 1880-1920 from Sicily. Other family related : Jacobucci or Jacopucci (from Central Italy).

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Re: Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby carubia » 27 Sep 2014, 12:15

Thanks for the response. I wasn't implying that Sicilian was old (in the sense of archaic - obviously it is "old"), poor, or in any way inferior to standard Italian. I'm just trying to understand why only the number 9 was written in Sicilian in these records but not any other numbers, or even words. Was "novi" used further north in the early 19th c. as well?

carubia
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Re: Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby carubia » 27 Sep 2014, 12:19

BTW, Vincenzo, I just noticed that your GGM had the surname Davola. From which town did she come? I have some ancestors with the name D'Avola (also written just Avola), but from Ribera in Agrigento.

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nazca
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Re: Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby nazca » 27 Sep 2014, 13:07

Hi,
in what town you find this document? could you post it?
thake a look to this link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language
it was studied over 5.000 sicilian words and its origin (number of words and percent of total):

latin 2.792 (55,84%)
greek 733 (14,66%)
spanish 664 (13,28%)
arabic 303 (6,06%)
french 318 (6,36%)
provenzale 83 (1,66%)
catalana 107 (2,14%)

My GGM was born in Campania region but her parents was sicilian . Unfortunately i never discovered a document whit the town of origin or where she married my GGF. I'm still searching ...

best regards
I'm searching lost relatives and descendant of my greatgrandfather Vincenzo Genualdi (or Gennaldi or Genuardi) and my greatgrandmother Concetta Davola (their sons: Angela, Carmela, Antonio, Bartolomeo, Ernesto, Simone, Riccardo, Maria) went in Chicago,Ill., and New Orleans, in 1880-1920 from Sicily. Other family related : Jacobucci or Jacopucci (from Central Italy).

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PeterTimber
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Re: Sicilian, old Italian, or just poor Italian?

Postby PeterTimber » 27 Sep 2014, 15:56

I recall reading somewhere that Dante when writing the Divine Comedy used linguistic ties to the Sicilian language/grammar. I have a few Sicilian books which may have this information and will research it if requested. I do recall,however, that Toscana was influenced Sicilian grammar.

If anybody is interested the succinct history of Sicilian language is best discussed in
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_language Peter
~Peter~


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