Translation request - Key data only

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rp76226
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Translation request - Key data only

Postby rp76226 » 21 Apr 2015, 04:59

Please translate the key genealogical data for the following document:

http://postimg.org/image/vijc2mo2l/

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 21 Apr 2015, 07:22

It's a death record from Racalmuto for Girolamo Di Poma, born in Racalmuto. He died at age 4 months on 8 Nov 1836 at his parents' home. His parents were Giuseppe [Di Poma], farmer, and Angela Greco, both living in Racalmuto, in Santa Croce Quarter.

As you probably know, the surname Di Poma is the same as Puma.

BTW, didn't you say that you have 36,000 people in your tree? Are they mainly from Italy?

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 21 Apr 2015, 07:36

Maybe he was the Girolamo Di Puma who was born on 18 Sep 1835 to Giuseppe Di Puma and Angela Macaluso. If so, then he was 14 months old when he died, not 4, but it definitely says, "quattro," so someone made a mistake. Or maybe he's not the same person, but I searched under Girolamo with surname "*p*ma" and didn't find anyone else. The mother's surname is also different, but that's not unusual: one of her parents might have had the surname Macaluso and the other Greco. There are 2 other children born to Angela Macaluso and Giuseppe Puma/Di Puma and 1 son to Angela Greco and Giuseppe Di Puma that I can see.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby rp76226 » 21 Apr 2015, 16:27

I'm glad you referenced the Angela Macaluso and Giuseppe Puma marriage. I've been struggling with that marriage because during the same time period I am finding children born to Calogera Macaluso and Giuseppe Di Puma. See link for several birth references on FamilySearch.org

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... %20puma%22

I also have several births showing for Angela Macaluso and Giuseppe Puma (no Di Puma) during the same time period:

https://familysearch.org/search/record/ ... ame%3Apuma

I think they might be the same wife/mother.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby liviomoreno » 21 Apr 2015, 16:54

I doubt they are the same persons. The birth dates of the parents do not match:
5 Feb 1826 Maria Di Puma - Giuseppe 1791 - Calogera 1801
14 Oct 1827 Calogero Di Puma - Giuseppe 1787 - Calogera 1787
5 Jan 1827 Lucia Puma - Giuseppe 1799 Angela 1801
18 Sep 1835 Girolamo Di Puma - Giuseppe 1809 - Angela 1807

I would say that we are talking of 4 different Giuseppe, 2 different Calogera and 2 different Angela...

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 21 Apr 2015, 17:48

It is unlikely that there were 2 married couples both named Giuseppe (Di) Puma and Calogera Macaluso having children in Racalmuto at the same time. Egregious errors do show up in ages in records from that time period. If you can get access to the microfilms, you can look for their marriage and death records. It's also possible that one or more records was mistranscribed by the FamilySearch indexers, who can be horrible. I note that there was also a couple Giuseppe Macaluso and Concetta Puma at that time, too. Perhaps a pair of Puma siblings married a pair of Macaluso siblings. The Giusepe Puma and Angela Macaluso couple look even more likely to be the same people. You often find that as people get older they appear to age much more slowly than they should. So 10 years later someone is only 5 years older on a child's birth record. Keep an open mind and look for more records.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby liviomoreno » 21 Apr 2015, 18:05

You may consider it unlikely, however there is no proof that they are the same persons. BTW I agree that more records (not FS transcriptions) need to be searched to draw any conclusion.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 22 Apr 2015, 02:44

Ron,

I see on a different thread that you've found the marriage record of Calogera Macaluso and Giuseppe Puma from 1817. What were their ages on it, assuming that information was on there? (It was probably a church record so maybe it didn't have the ages.)

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby rp76226 » 22 Apr 2015, 04:31

Here is the photo. Page on the left, middle, by the vertical red line -

http://www.smugmug.com/photos/i-DHJk6P3 ... HJk6P3.jpg

This is the translation I was given:

7 January 1817. Giuseppe Puma, son of Carmelo Puma and Vincenza Carbone, married Calogera Macaluso, daughter of Francesco Macaluso and Grazia La Magra.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 22 Apr 2015, 09:48

Look at the right-hand side of that page!

There's the marriage of Giuseppe Di Puma (of Girolamo and Anna Ippolito) to Angela Greco (of Giacomo and Antonia Macaluso). So Calogera Macaluso is different from Angela Macaluso, and their husbands are different, too, but Angela Greco = Angela Macaluso.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby liviomoreno » 22 Apr 2015, 09:53

carubia wrote:Look at the right-hand side of that page!

There's the marriage of Giuseppe Di Puma (of Girolamo and Anna Ippolito) to Angela Greco (of Giacomo and Antonia Macaluso). So Calogera Macaluso is different from Angela Macaluso, and their husbands are different, too, but Angela Greco = Angela Macaluso.


How can you say that Angela Greco is Angela Macaluso?

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 22 Apr 2015, 10:46

Angela Macaluso's mother is Antonia Greco. Thus it would be normal, in Agrigento province in the 1st half of the 19th century at least, to refer to her (in civil records) as Angela Greco (or Angela Greco Macaluso or Angela Macaluso Greco). This practice died out over time but still sometimes occurred in the late 1800s, too.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby liviomoreno » 22 Apr 2015, 11:25

I strongly doubt that in Sicily a woman would be referred to in civil records with her mother's name...
In any case there's no proof that Angela Greco is Angela Macaluso, but if you are convinced I will not insist

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby carubia » 22 Apr 2015, 13:57

My conclusion is based on spending years fitting almost every civil record for half of the 19th-c. (I'm still working on the other half) for a single town in Agrigento (Ribera) into one, connected tree. At first I was confused by the practice, too, but once I came to realize what was going on the records made a lot more sense. In building the tree I make forays into nearby towns, as people sometimes move from one place to another, and have come across the practice in them, too. I have no idea how widespread this was or why it occurred. I just know that it did in that area. Racalmuto is in my neck of the genealogical woods, so to speak, so I'm not surprised to see it there, either.

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Re: Translation request - Key data only

Postby rp76226 » 22 Apr 2015, 15:51

That information made me re-look at the marriage records that the Genealogist sent me with translations. I had not connected the dots between these two marriages being on the same page. His translation in Italian was:

7 gennaio 1817 Giuseppe Puma di Girolamo e fu Anna Ippolito sposa Angela Greco fu Giacomo e Antonia Macaluso.

I translated that as:

7 January 1817. Giuseppe Puma, son of Girolamo Puma and deceased Anna Ippolito, married Angela Greco, daughter of deceased Giacomo Greco and Antonia Macaluso.

Makes me wonder if Calogera Macaluso was related to Antonia Macaluso. I have not found a relationship between the two Giuseppe Puma's. The complete list of Puma "male" marriages in Racalmuto from 1588 to 1821 that he gave me with translations can be found through this link:

http://www.smugmug.com/gallery/n-sTBF9T/

Click on any photo to enlarge. To go back to thumbnail size, click on the "X" as you move your cursor to the top right corner. If anyone else has racalmuto records, I hope that you will see fit to share with me.


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