Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
stokkster1
Elite
Elite
Posts: 479
Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 02:05

Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby stokkster1 » 15 Aug 2015, 05:33

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,352218601

The following site is linked to the page I found him on looks like a lot of kids listed at the bottom, but I can't read what it is all about.

Debbie- Chasing Sgro-Sgroi-Segro, Marino, Napoli, Russo & Garrasi so far :D

carubia
Master
Master
Posts: 916
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 12:13
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby carubia » 21 Aug 2015, 19:20

I had replied to this yesterday but then apparently my post was lost with all the other posts from that day, so I'm posting this again in case you missed it.

This is a record of a court order to amend the birth records of the children of Giacomo Sgro'. Originally the surname appeared as Sgroi in 3 of the records but years later he went to court to amend it to Sgro'. The mother's surname was also corrected, from Armenia in the first and Orlando in the other 3 to Filarmonica in all 4.

The children's birth records were from 1874 (Cesare), 1878 (Giuseppe), 1881 (Vincenza), and 1889 (Providenza). The amendment was done in 1898.

stokkster1
Elite
Elite
Posts: 479
Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 02:05

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby stokkster1 » 21 Aug 2015, 22:38

Thanks so much Her name was Filarmonica Pasqua, wonder why in the others it was Anna Orlando? could this be a second wife? I will check Marriage and birth records.

Debbie

carubia
Master
Master
Posts: 916
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 12:13
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby carubia » 22 Aug 2015, 05:08

If he had a second wife Anna Orlando, it would've been after the birth of the children with Pasqua Filarmonica, thus at the time of the birth of the children, no one one would know about the name of his future wife! :lol: You do, however, sometimes see that kind of mistake on death records.

Or do you mean that Anna Orlando was his first wife, who had died before he had those 4 children with Pasqua? It's remotely possible, but not likely. What was Pasqua's birth name? Have you seen her marriage record?

stokkster1
Elite
Elite
Posts: 479
Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 02:05

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby stokkster1 » 22 Aug 2015, 06:18

I have varying records with the name Anna Orlando & others with Filarmonica (First Name) Pasqua (Last Name)

Giovanna sgroi Death in 1890 states Mother as Orlando Pasqua age 5
Giovanna sgroi Death in 1890 states Father Giacoma, mother Anna Orlando (Both Dead) age 70 widow of angelo Perrone
Providenza sgroi Birth in 1889 states father Giacoma mother Anna Orlando

stokkster1
Elite
Elite
Posts: 479
Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 02:05

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby stokkster1 » 22 Aug 2015, 08:07

carubia wrote:If he had a second wife Anna Orlando, it would've been after the birth of the children with Pasqua Filarmonica, thus at the time of the birth of the children, no one one would know about the name of his future wife! :lol: You do, however, sometimes see that kind of mistake on death records.

Or do you mean that Anna Orlando was his first wife, who had died before he had those 4 children with Pasqua? It's remotely possible, but not likely. What was Pasqua's birth name? Have you seen her marriage record?



Found the marriage record but I can't read it all, can you help

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,954438101

carubia
Master
Master
Posts: 916
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 12:13
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby carubia » 22 Aug 2015, 09:43

In this case the pertinent info is all near the top of the record.
On 2 Jan 1873,
Giacomo Sgro', age 20, son of Cesare and Vincenza Internicola, unmarried, domiciled and resident in this comune (S. Giuseppe Jato),
married
Pasqua Filarmonica, daughter of unknown parents, unmarried, born in Alcamo, domiciled and resident in this comune.

No age is given for the bride. The groom's place of birth is not indicated, either, which may be because he was born in San Giuseppe Jato. It is not indicated whether Giacomo's parents' were alive or not, but probably (but not with certainty) they were since it doesn't say "fu" or "furono."

Note that Filarmonica is her surname and Pasqua is her given name. This fits with the other evidence, namely, that Filarmonica was a replacement for Orlando, which is also a surname. (Also, the record for the amendment states that Filarmonica is the cognome (=surname) of the mother.) Because her parents were unknown, she was assigned a surname at birth; often these surnames are unique and don't correspond to the surname of anyone else in the town, which is probably the case here with Filarmonica. Children of unknown parents often changed their surnames, so that may be why she is Orlando on one record and Filarmonica on another, but that doesn't explain Anna vs. Pasqua.

Note also that the groom's name is Giacomo, with a final "o." Giacoma is a woman's name.

carubia
Master
Master
Posts: 916
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 12:13
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby carubia » 22 Aug 2015, 10:08

The record for the amendment makes no mention of the mother's given name. I wonder what it is on the birth records of their first 3 children. So far we know:
She married in 1873 as Pasqua Filarmonica.
On birth record of child Cesare born in 1874, she is __ Armenia, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Giuseppe born in 1878, she is __ Orlando, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Vincenza born in 1881, she is __ Orlando, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Providenza born in 1889, she is Anna Orlando.
On death record of child Giovanna (age 5) from 1889, she is Pasqua Orlando.
It's funny that Pasqua's name was not amended on Giovanna's 1884 birth record. Maybe it was already correct there.

So you can look at the mother's name on Cesare's, Vincenza's, Giuseppe's, and Giovanna's birth records. So far I see Anna only on Providenza's birth record.

As for the 1890 death record for Giovann Sgroi, age 70, maybe there was an older couple Giacomo Sgroi and Anna Orlando who lived in the early 19th c. That Giacomo Sgroi might even have been the grandfather of the Giacomo Sgro' who married Pasqua Filarmonica. Could Pasqua's name have appeared as Anna on at least one record because somene was confusing her with her husband's grandmother? That seems farfetched.

stokkster1
Elite
Elite
Posts: 479
Joined: 05 Aug 2015, 02:05

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby stokkster1 » 22 Aug 2015, 20:57

carubia wrote:The record for the amendment makes no mention of the mother's given name. I wonder what it is on the birth records of their first 3 children. So far we know:
She married in 1873 as Pasqua Filarmonica.
On birth record of child Cesare born in 1874, she is __ Armenia, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Giuseppe born in 1878, she is __ Orlando, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Vincenza born in 1881, she is __ Orlando, with unknown (to us) given name.
On birth record of child Providenza born in 1889, she is Anna Orlando.
On death record of child Giovanna (age 5) from 1889, she is Pasqua Orlando.
It's funny that Pasqua's name was not amended on Giovanna's 1884 birth record. Maybe it was already correct there.

So you can look at the mother's name on Cesare's, Vincenza's, Giuseppe's, and Giovanna's birth records. So far I see Anna only on Providenza's birth record.

As for the 1890 death record for Giovann Sgroi, age 70, maybe there was an older couple Giacomo Sgroi and Anna Orlando who lived in the early 19th c. That Giacomo Sgroi might even have been the grandfather of the Giacomo Sgro' who married Pasqua Filarmonica. Could Pasqua's name have appeared as Anna on at least one record because somene was confusing her with her husband's grandmother? That seems farfetched.



Providenza Birth dec 1 1889 Lists Orlando, Pasqua age 40 I think
Giacoma Birth Nov 9 1886 Lists Orlando, Pasqua age 36
Giovanna Death Oct 4 1890 List Orlando Pasqua child is 5
Filippo Death Dec 14 1885 List list Orlando Pasqua age 1yr 8mt

carubia
Master
Master
Posts: 916
Joined: 25 Jan 2011, 12:13
Location: Tokyo, Japan

Re: Cesare Sgro Help Please with translation Pretty Please & Thank You

Postby carubia » 23 Aug 2015, 04:22

If so, then where do you see the name Anna Orlando? It looks like her name was always Pasqua. It's odd, though, that Filippo and Giacoma's birth certs weren't amended at the same time as the others. Maybe because the surname was correct (Sgro'), the father Giacomo didn't think to add them to the court case.


Return to “Italian language, handwriting , script & translations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Majestic-12 [Bot] and 6 guests