Cannot decipher the profession

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stfrancis
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Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 16 Nov 2015, 00:47

I have spent hundreds of hours deciphering and translating this record, but I have hit a brick wall on the profession mentioned at the 3rd line, second word....

I have used the Italian Record Extraction Guide, and many, many more, including word scrambling engines, but still cannot come up with the word to match the letters I see, I read it "mannesa"....i am almost sure the beginning is "ma" and the end is "sa"....

also, at lines 6 & 7, I dont understand the exact meaning "un figlio di sano maschile"...."a son of a healthy male "...or is that just the wording in wrong order..."a son, a healthy male".....

any assistance is welcomed
regards
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Test.jpg

erudita74
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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 16 Nov 2015, 01:13

mannese- he built wagons

di sesso maschile=masculine sex

Erudita

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 16 Nov 2015, 01:57

Erudita, Thank you, you have saved me a lot of frustration indeed

when I searched for mannese I never saw any reference to the word, so I guess one has to understand the language or it is a dialect, to get this....Im glad I came to the right place...

regarding the male sex, it sounds redundant to say "a son", "male sex"...or maybe Im still not understanding....?

thanks

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 16 Nov 2015, 04:21

Here are two links with the profession "mannese:" I don't know if the word is dialettal or not

1. In this one, the synonym "carradore"-which is a wheelwright-is shown for the word mannese

http://www.vesuvioweb.com/it/wp-content ... vioweb.pdf

2. #388-in the link below-mannese translates to: constructs, repairs, and sells carts or wagons-

https://books.google.com/books?id=xUQVD ... me&f=false


As to the words for "male sex" and for "son" in the record-yes, it is redundant for the record to have both, but that is the way these records were worded. There is a lot of redundancy in the Italian records, as far as I'm concerned.

Erudita

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 16 Nov 2015, 15:55

Thank you, more challenging than I thought....

I try to decipher last 3 lines in above attachment and the following paragraph...

".... che cui ha presentato a cui i genitori
intendere di dare il nome di Vincenzo...."

I assume parents naming presented child Vincenzo...

and....

"La dichiarante dietro mia richiesta , ha aporto
che il padre della famiello non se è presentato a fare
la dichiarazione di nascita perchè impedito
La quale dichiarazione viene fatta alla presenza
di Marco Caputo figlio del fu Fiore di anni cinquantasei
di professione Inserviente comunale, d’Aniello
Celardo figlio del fu Giuseppe di anni quarantasei
di professione becchino, residenti in questo comune
testimoni scelti dalla dichiarante stessa, e quali
dopo di aver avuta lettura del presente processa
verbale steso contemporanemente sui ducere
gistri originali si sono sottoscritti da me e da
un testimone , avendo dotto la dichiarante , e
l’altro testimone di non saper scrivere

Marco Caputo
Vincenzo Maiello"

i did my best to try to decipher letters, but I know some of my spelling is wrong....
im not sure some of this, seems like one witness could not be present or sign...
Attachments
vince466(2).jpg

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 16 Nov 2015, 18:27

stfrancis wrote:Thank you, more challenging than I thought....

I'm on my way out, so I hope I didn't miss anything. If I did, I'm sure someone else will catch it. Erudita

I try to decipher last 3 lines in above attachment and the following paragraph...

".... che mi ha presentato a cui i genitori
intendono di dare il nome di Vincenzo...."

I assume parents naming presented child Vincenzo...(the father was not presnet to make the declaration of the birth-perche` impedito

and....

"La dichiarante dietro mia richiesta , ha esposto
che il padre del fanciullo non si è presentato a fare
la dichiarazione di nascita perchè impedito
La quale dichiarazione viene fatta alla presenza
di Marco Caputo figlio del fu Fiore di anni cinquantasei
di professione Inserviente comunale, d’Aniello
Celardo figlio del fu Giuseppe di anni quarantasei
di professione becchino, residenti in questo comune
testimoni scelti dalla dichiarante stessa, e quali
dopo di aver avuta lettura al presente processo
verbale steso contemporanemente sui due registri
originali si sono sottoscritti da me e da
un testimone , avendo detto la dichiarante , e
l’altro testimone di non saper scrivere

Marco Caputo
Vincenzo Maiello"

i did my best to try to decipher letters, but I know some of my spelling is wrong....
im not sure some of this, seems like one witness could not be present or sign...

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 17 Nov 2015, 00:30

Thank you so much Erudita,

I should have put the first part first, so here it is....I think most of this I got, but not too sure....



my interpretation is...

"Numero d’ordine quattro cento sessantasei
L’anno mille otto cento settanta nel giorno dieci del
mese di Agosto nella casa comunale allo ore sedici
dinanzi a me Vincenzo Maiello sindaco ed uffiziale
dello stato civile del comune di Afragola circondario
di Casoria, provincia di Napoli è comparsa Rosa Caputo
figlia del fu Vincenzo di anni cinquantasei
di professione levatrice, domicilata in questo comune
strada Santa Maria la quale avendo assistita
al parto di cui in appresso cui ha dichiarato
che nel giorno otto di questo mese di Agosto alle
ore uno italiana è nato da Celestina Moccia
figlia di Pasquale, moglie di Pasquale Balsamo
figlio del fu Federico, di anni trenta di professione
mannese domiciliata in Afragola strada
Santa Maria e nella casa di loro abitazione
posto in questo comune di Afragola nella suddetta
strada Santa Maria un figlio di sesso
maschile che mi ha presentato a cui i genitori
intendono di dare il nome di Vincenzo...."
Attachments
Vince466.jpg

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 17 Nov 2015, 01:21

stfrancis wrote:Thank you so much Erudita,

I should have put the first part first, so here it is....I think most of this I got, but not too sure....



my interpretation is...

"Numero d’ordine quattro cento sessantasei
L’anno mille otto cento settanta nel giorno dieci del
mese di Agosto nella casa comunale alle ore sedici
dinanzi a me Vincenzo Maiello sindaco ed uffiziale
dello stato civile del comune di Afragola circondario
di Casoria, provincia di Napoli è comparsa Rosa Caputo
figlia del fu Vincenzo di anni cinquantasei
di professione levatrice, domicilata in questo comune
strada Santa Maria la quale avendo assistita
al parto di cui in appresso mi ha dichiarato
che nel giorno otto di questo mese di Agosto alle
ore una italiana è nato da Celestina Moccia
figlia di Pasquale, moglie di Pasquale Balsamo
figlio del fu Federico, di anni trenta di professione
mannese domiciliata in Afragola strada
Santa Maria e nella casa di loro abitazione
posta in questo comune di Afragola nella suddetta
strada Santa Maria un figlio di sesso
maschile che mi ha presentato a cui i genitori
intendono di dare il nome di Vincenzo...."



Good job! The infant was presented by the midwife.

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 17 Nov 2015, 04:39

Thanks to you...Im actually learning a tiny bit of Neapolitan....

here is my summary english interpretation...Im not sure if I may have missed some subtle points and nuances....

No 466,
In the year eighteen seventy, the tenth day of August, in the town hall, at four o’clock in the afternoon, before me, Vincenzo Maiello, mayor, and officer of civil status, of the town of Afragola, District Casoria, Province of Naples, appeared Rosa Caputo, daughter of the late Vincenzo, age fifty six years, occupation midwife, domiciled in this town, on Santa Maria Street, who having assisted in the childbirth, as described below, declared that on the eighth day of August, at one o’clock in the morning, Italian time, was born of Celistina Moccia, daughter of Pasquale, wife of Pasquale Balsamo, son of the late Federico, age thirty years, occupation wagon builder, domiciled in Afragola, on Santa Maria Street, and in their home in this town of Afragola, on the same street, Santa Maria, a son, male sex, presented to me, whose parents intend on giving the name of Vincenzo.

The declarant, at my request, expressed, that the child’s father was unable to be present to do the declaration of birth, which declaration is made in the presence of Marco Caputo, son of the late Fiore, age fifty years, occupation municipal attendant, and d’Aniello Celardo, son of the late Giuseppe, age fourty years, occupation undertaker, residents of this town, and witnesses chosen by the same declarant , and after having read these minutes, contained in each of the two original registers, I have signed with one of the witnesses, the declarant having said that the other witness is unable to write


(Signed)

Marco Caputo

Vincenzo Maiello

erudita74
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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 17 Nov 2015, 20:07

To clarify-

There was a verbal reading of the proceedings which were inscribed in two registers (normally these birth records read "after the reading," but this record has the word for "simultaneously."

The declarant (midwife), as well as the witness Aniello, were illiterate and did not sign. (I should just add that, in those days, to be "literate" did not necessarily mean that one could read. It just meant that one could sign his/her name. If the witnesses did have any schooling at that point, they would have learned reading and writing as two different skills and not necessarily have been "literate," as we now understand that word.

Also notice that there is an abbreviation for the Italian word for "witness" after the signature of the witness Marco.

Lastly, I mistakenly corrected something that you originally had correct. (del presente processo), as you wrote, was the correct deciphering of the handwriting.

Erudita

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 18 Nov 2015, 00:59

thank you Erudita,

so basically, we are close in the translation...

thinking out loud here, and looking at the big picture, is there anything specific I can read into this document in terms of meaning, or context, to gain a greater understanding of that family...and who they were...

Example, does it help us understand what class, was this a typical birth, why does the midwife play the prominent role....
I would like to take next step in terms of understanding my grand father's (and grand mother's) family lineage - would it be a good idea to ask Afragola to search the records themselves to confirm this is indeed my grandfather, and the other names I think I read (this person is under Vincenzo, yet in Amercia he only used Louis...), I do think the Moccia I read is a match on his mother...

I was also wondering if its a good idea to ATTEMPT to find and write to the church to determine the baptism, if it exists...

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 18 Nov 2015, 05:36

I'll try to answer some of your questions now and the rest tomorrow-

As to the midwife and her role in the birth-childbirth, during this time period, was the business of women-a man was never present at the birth of his child and did not assist his wife in giving birth. That was left to the town midwife or to a female family member, a female friend, or female neighbors. The midwife had an important role, as she not only assisted the female during the childbirth process, but she often stayed at the home afterward to help with other household duties. She also was often the one who carried the newborn to the church to be baptized. The new mother had to undergo a purification period and normally did not attend the baptism. The midwife also often held the newborn at the font during the baptism and often was selected to be the baby's godmother because she had developed a close relationship with the new mother and the family. So the midwife, even if not a family member, had a very important role in the childbirth process.

The new father, if he could, would make the declaration of the birth at the town hall and present the newborn to the town official there. Doing so was a sign of his virility and communicated to other town members that there was no doubt that he had fathered this particular child. In this record, however, something prevented this father from doing so, but the record doesn't state what that something was. He wasn't a day laborer who might have been working in another town or another country at the time of the birth. He wasn't a shepherd who might have been away for weeks participating in the semi annual transumanza, whereby the sheep would be moved from high ground to low or vice versa. More than likely, as a mannese, he owned his own shop in the town and was considered an artisan. So was he ill? was he physically handicapped? I have no idea. The record doesn't say. It only tells us that something prevented him from making the declaration and presentation at the town hall. I believe that his occupation made him a member of the middle class. As a mannese, he definitely was not of the peasantry or lowest class.

We'll deal with church records tomorrow. It's late here now, and I'm off to bed.

Erudita

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 18 Nov 2015, 14:05

I see you are online. I am going to give you a chance to read the above first. I have a question for you though. Why do you believe that the birth record is for an ancestor of yours? You don't seem sure that it is. The town will not be able to determine that info for you. You need to determine that yourself by linking the Italian info to the info you know from U.S. records. I have found the marriage record for Pasquale Balsamo and Celeste Moccia. I have a parish name from that record. There are currently 8 parishes there and we'll talk more about that shortly.

Edit to add:

I can also now narrow down the parish name, as I also found the marriage of Pasquale's parents which has the complete parish name.

Also there is no reason at this point to go after church records. You have online civil records back to 1809. If this is the correct family, you should concentrate on getting as much info out of those records as you can. Church records don't usually contain the wealth of info that civil records do.

Erudita

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby stfrancis » 18 Nov 2015, 20:24

Erudita, thank you SO MUCH

I now have better understanding of the culture and periodical context - which is what interests me even more than just names & dates....all this is more interesting than that - I love these peripheral details....

yes, I believe the birth I gave you is my grandfather, he seemed to become Louis (Luigi) Balsamo who married Lillie Florio, (per NYC, Manhattan Marriage License) which I ordered, in 1900, he lists his parents as Pasquale and Celia Moccia (Mocei) (or similar spelling). You will see on NYC License, the name looks a bit like Mocci....so this might off a bit...from what I read though, MocciA seems to be the more common spelling...this is why I was hopping the Italian church records might provide clearer spellings ....eventually if I need to...


He also shows middle name as Vincent on document here in Montreal, some birthdates given seem to be 1870, or up to 1875...and he states on a document here, that he is originally from Afragola...


So my only doubts were my interpretations of the names, and dates, but now I see many "coincidences"....so it must be him

I went to Family search and the Antenati site, but I did not locate the other Balsamo marriages you speak of, am I using the wrong search terms, I used Napoli ...?

I attach NY marriage
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hpqscan0012r1.jpg

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Re: Cannot decipher the profession

Postby erudita74 » 18 Nov 2015, 21:54

Marriage of Pasquale Balsamo and Celeste Moccia –parish of Santa Maria on June 12, 1857-he was 19, she was 16. He was only a day laborer. His father, Federico, thoughwas deceased but had been a carpenter. His mother Rosa Russo was still alive. The bride was living in the town on Strada Pigna. Her father Pascale Moccia was a water bearer and her mother, Angela Russo, was deceased.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cat=974488

I have one other record to post

Erudita


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