unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Having problems with the Italian language? Do you need help to translate or understand an old family document? There is always someone who can help you!
kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 07 May 2016, 18:39

A "online genealogy acquaintance" recommended this site and forum for help translating a document.

While researching my g-g.mothers birth, I uncovered a mystery. It's written in the margin of the 1872 Atti di Nascita for Record 31 (Penna Luigia) and I've tried to translate. It goes something like this:
"With judgement 16-Dec-1893 of the Civil Tribunale of Asti today transcribed with [ -can't decipher- ] register of the birth in progress and he ordered rectification of the act that parents of Luigia Penna. They are/were called Luigi Tommaso and Canavese Maria Maddalena Seconda and not only Luigi and Maddalena. signed ...." /end
So, something interesting happened in Dec-1893 (involving the court).

I then found an entry in the 1893 Atti Di Nascita Parte II (Record 6). I tried to follow, but it's too long and complicated, and definitely not a standard birth entry. It lists most/all of the family members (parents and at least 2 daughters, plus birth dates from the 1870s) along with names I don't recognize.
I attached the 2 pages if you can help figure this out.

I don't need a full and complete translation; just the facts of genealogical interest.
Thanks in advance,
Ken
Attachments
record-image_3QS7-9949-WHN7.jpg
1893 Atti di Nascita
record-image_3QS7-994M-RZD7.jpg
1872 Atti di Nascita
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 09 May 2016, 19:52

With my Italian limited I've figured this entry describes 4 events:
Matrimonio: 3-Feb-1872 - Penna e Canavese
Nascita (1): 4-Dec-1872 #31 - Penna Luigia Francesca
Nascita (2): 10-Oct-1876 #32 Penna [??] Catterina
Morti: 14-Nov-1878 #37 Canavase Maria Maddalena Seconda

The first birth record is attached to the post above. I found the records for the 2nd birth and the death. See attached for the remaining records.
There isn't marriage record in 1872, and details in the second birth record don't match.
-Nascita (2): 14-Dec-1876 #32 Penna Giuseppe
Also, it does not have the additional entry about this civil matter.
However, the 1878 death record has an entry (very similar to 1872 birth record).

What I can't figure it is what id describes, or why it was created.

Thanks in advance for any help!
-Ken
Attachments
record-image_3QS7-8949-BHLL.jpg
1878 Atti di Morti
record-image_3QSQ-G94M-NXB.jpg
1876 Atti di Nascita
record-image_3QS7-L94M-Y7B3.jpg
1872 Atti di Matrimonio
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 09 May 2016, 22:02

kencwalker wrote:With my Italian limited I've figured this entry describes 4 events:
Matrimonio: 3-Feb-1872 - Penna e Canavese
Nascita (1): 4-Dec-1872 #31 - Penna Luigia Francesca
Nascita (2): 10-Oct 1874 Penna Filomena Catterina
Morti: 14-Nov-1878 #37 Canavase Maria Maddalena Seconda

The first birth record is attached to the post above. I found the records for the 2nd birth and the death. See attached for the remaining records.
There isn't marriage record in 1872, and details in the second birth record don't match.
-Nascita (2): 14-Dec-1876 #32 Penna Giuseppe
Also, it does not have the additional entry about this civil matter.
However, the 1878 death record has an entry (very similar to 1872 birth record).

What I can't figure it is what id describes, or why it was created.

Thanks in advance for any help!
-Ken

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 09 May 2016, 22:47

Here's the 1872 marriage record in the town of Cortandone. As you can see, the groom's first and middle names were in the wrong order in the record. That was corrected in 1893.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992

1874 birth record in Camerano Casasco

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992

Erudita

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 10 May 2016, 02:29

Hello Erudita,
Thanks for the information. The birth year difference explains my mismatch. Seems I can read dates written in Italian better than those written with numbers. Also, thanks for sharing the links to the FamilySearch films. That saved me a lot of time. The Asti films are in somewhat random order.

I'm curious - why would the court create this entry so long after the marriage, births and death? This is 15 years after the mother's passing. Is there another event I need to find? Maybe Luigi gets remarried, or something similar?

To be sure I understand, please confirm I have this correctly:
-The groom/father's name should be Luigi Tomasso (aka Luigi di Antonio), and NOT Tomasso Luigi, on all records.
-The daughter's name on the 10-Oct 1874 birth should be Filomena Catterina NOT Catterina Filomena.
-The only change to the 4-Dec-1872 birth is the father's name.
-My read of the 14-Dec-1876 birth of Giuseppe shows the same Luigi and Maddalena. Do you agree? Is that why there's not an entry about the 1893 civil record (no change)? I still need to check the Atti di Morti to see if he died before 1893.

Again, thanks a lot. This was a complicated document (for me) and are important changes. Otherwise I'd be looking for the wrong father!

-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 10 May 2016, 05:32

Ken
I've finally sorted through some of the records. As to why Giuseppe's record wasn't amended in 1893-he died at the age of only 1 hour old. On his birth and death records, his parents' names were given as Luigi of Antonio (Penna) and Canavese Seconda. Here's the death record-

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992

As to why it took so long for the changes to the other documents to be made by the the court-I'm not sure at this point. Will have to further investigate this. I haven't had time to search for other records.

The long record-here's a summary of the translation-
It's dated Dec 20, 1893 in Camerano Casasco at 11 a.m. in the town hall. The undersigned mayor and official of the town had received a letter from the procurator (like a district attorney or prosecutor) for the civil and penal court of Asti. That letter was dated on the 18th and requested that he transcribe exactly the court judgment dated on the 16th. The content of the judgment was as follows:

it requested that the civil acts of birth regarding the Penna family of Camerano Casasco be amended. From the documents produced, it establshed that the act of marriage dated Feb 3, 1872 between Penna and Canavese, which had been recovered from the civil state of Cortandone, and the acts of birth of Dec 4, 1872 of Penna Luigia Francesca, and Oct 10, 1874 of Penna Filomena Catterina, and the act of death of Canavese Maria Maddalena Seconda, were all erroneous. It required that the official of the civil state of Cortandone amend the act of matrimony -changing the groom's name to Luigi Tommaso instead of Tommaso Luigi. It requested that the official of the civil state of Camerano Casasco amend the two birth records-Dec 4, 1872, #31, of Penna Luigia Francesca, and Oct 10, 1874, #32 of Penna Filomena Catterina, so that the parents of both be called Penna Luigi Tommaso and Canavese Maria Maddalena Seconda and not solely Luigi and Maddalena. It required that the death record of Nov 14, 1878 #37 for the deceased Canavese have the name Maria Maddalena Seconda, and not solely Seconda, and that she was married to Penna Luigi Tomasso and not Penna Luigi.

That's all for tonight.

Erudita

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 10 May 2016, 15:19

Erudita,
That's wonderful - way more than I expected - THANKS!

Nice work finding Giuseppe's death record. Without an index, the Asti films are hard to search. I was curious about his parents because the ages for father/mother on the birth record aren't a good match to previous births. (They are entered as 29 and 24, when they should be more like 32 and 27 in 1876. However, I understand age was an approximate thing back in the day.) Also, there appears to be more than one Luigi Penna in Camerano Casaco (there is an Uffiziale named Penna Luigi on some records). :-)

I asked "why the entry?" because I thought experienced researchers might know of common reasons to correct the records. I noticed Filomena Catterina married on 21-Jan-1894 - could the name corrections be required for her marriage?

Again, thanks for all you efforts.
-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 10 May 2016, 15:38

Ken
Yes, the corrections probably were required for her marriage, which is why they were made right before it. I didn't see her marriage record in Camerano though. I went through the marriage indices for that town and didn't see her or her sister. Where did she get married? can you post a link to the image so that I can see it?
Thanks.
Erudita

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 10 May 2016, 15:54

Hi Eurdita,
You enjoy solving a good mystery, don't you? :-)
There's a margin note about the marriage in Filomena Catterina's 1874 birth record (right under the entry about the 1893 name changes).
Here's the link you provided:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992

From my limited Italian, it looks like:
date: 21-Jan-1894
groom: Leschiera (?) Luigi from Torino
location: not mentioned - maybe in Torino ?

I haven't searched for the marriage record (yet).
-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

User avatar
liviomoreno
Master
Master
Posts: 5423
Joined: 13 Feb 2004, 00:00
Location: Rome, Italy
Contact:

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby liviomoreno » 10 May 2016, 16:26

kencwalker wrote:Hi Eurdita,
You enjoy solving a good mystery, don't you? :-)
There's a margin note about the marriage in Filomena Catterina's 1874 birth record (right under the entry about the 1893 name changes).
Here's the link you provided:
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992
The above link is incorrect, the actual link is
https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1 ... cc=1937992


From my limited Italian, it looks like:
On 21-Jan-1894 in Torino
she married Luigi Leschiera (this is the surname)


I haven't searched for the marriage record (yet).
-Ken

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 10 May 2016, 16:31

Thanks, Livio, but I saw that Ken posted the wrong link. I was just reading the correct one. I missed that info last night, as I was up really late and very tired. The odd thing was that I looked for the marriage publications early this morning and didn't find any. I would have expected them to be posted in her town even if she married somewhere else.
Erudita

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 10 May 2016, 16:36

Thanks Livio,
I need some tips for "best practices" when posting names and copying links.
I wrote the groom's name as the custom for records at that time [Last First].
Do you suggest I use [First Last], and forum members know what I mean?

Also, I don't know what happened with the link in my post. I copied from Eurdita's original message using right-mouse/"Copy link address" , then used "Paste" to add to mine.
Is there a better way to do this?
Thanks,
-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 10 May 2016, 16:41

Ken
It best to open the link first and then copy and paste the URL for the page where the record appears. Hope this makes sense.

I just found that she had a child born in Torino. Marriage records from Torino for that year are not online.

https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:VK6S-NLK

Erudita

kencwalker
Veteran
Veteran
Posts: 193
Joined: 07 May 2016, 18:30
Location: Dallas, TX

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby kencwalker » 10 May 2016, 16:45

erudita74 wrote:I looked for the marriage publications early this morning and didn't find any. I would have expected them to be posted in her town even if she married somewhere else.


Erudita,
I am am not familiar with the publication process for out of town marriages. This is the first family member I've researched that did this. Her sister Luigia did the same thing in 1903; she married in Cavaglio d'Agogna and stayed.
What I don't know - did the sisters still live in Camerano Casaca at the time of their marriages? Could their records be in the Torino and Cavaglio d'Agogna Pubblicazioni ?
Just a thought...
-Ken
Researching surnames Pedroncelli and Pilatti in Sondrio; Cantoia in Novara; Penna in Asti.

erudita74
Master
Master
Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: unusual Atti di Nascita entry (long)

Postby erudita74 » 10 May 2016, 16:49

Ken
If they were still living in Camerano at the time of their marriages in these other towns, then there should have been marriage publications in their own town, as well as in the town in which they were marrying. The purpose of the marriage publications was to insure that there were no impediments or obstacles to the upcoming marriage, such as one of the prospective spouses already being married to someone else. So, if we can't find marriage publications for either of them in Camerano, then they weren't living there at the time of their marriages in these other towns. I'm sure I checked but will recheck in case I just missed them.
Erudita


Return to “Italian language, handwriting , script & translations”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests