In Cerca Di Conferma

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sacesta
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In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 06 Jul 2016, 21:23

I'm looking for confirmation about this marriage record and any other enlightening information you can provide.

It appears that Antonio Tristaino's first wife, Maria Aceste passed away and that he married Maria's sister, Antonina Aceste. Is that correct?

Thanks again for your help.

Steve

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Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 06 Jul 2016, 23:06

Steve
The document reads that a dispensation was obtained from the archbishop because the couple marrying were cousins in the second degree through marriage. When the Council of Trent devised its legal system, it outlawed marriages between first, second, and third, cousins. It also outlawed marriages between first, second, and third cousins of a deceased spouse, in the case of second marriages. So Maria Aceste, the deceased spouse of Antonino Tristaino, was the second cousin of Antonina Aceste, daughter of dec Rocco Aceste and living Antonia Cusenza. Do you have Maria Aceste's relationship to Antonia Aceste worked out in your tree? Two people would be second cousins, if they were three generations from a common ancestor. They would be third cousins, if they were four generations away from a common ancestor.

This info is taken from the Journal of Family History and an article called Land, Kinship, and Consanguineous Marriage in Italy from the 17th to the 19th Centuries by Raul Merzario.


Erudita

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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 07 Jul 2016, 03:51

Thanks so much Erudita!

If I am reading the 1882 marriage record correctly, it looks like Antonina Aceste is the daughter of Rocco Aceste and Antonia Cusenza.

The 1879 record below shows Antonio Tristaino marrying his first wife Maria Aceste, daughter of Benedetto Aceste and Antonina Sciortino. That means that Maria is a sister to Rocco Aceste. So Antonio Tristaino first marries Rocco's sister, and after she dies, he marries Rocco's daughter. Antonina appears to be Maria's niece.

And now, here's something else that's interesting… The bottom record, dated 1866, shows whom I believe to be Francesco Tristaino (relative of Antonio?) marrying… (wait for it)... Maria Aceste, also the daughter of Benedetto and Antonina Sciortino. I know Maria is a very common name in Calatafimi, but could Benedetto and Antonina Sciortino have had two living daughters both named Maria?

This is getting interesting.

Thanks again!

Steve


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Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 07 Jul 2016, 13:37

Steve
There was another sentence, from that article I mentioned above, that I never got a chance to add yesterday when we had the terrible storms that knocked out my internet connection. This may help clarify things but does take us out of our normal way of viewing relationships.

In general, the term "cousin" was used for the offspring of the brothers and sisters of the father and the mother and for the offspring of the offspring of the sisters and brothers of the father and the mother. (This concept also accounts for why, one day on the forum, we had a record which had either zio cugino or cugino zio in it).

Anyway, the statement means that we are now viewing nieces and nephews, and grandnieces and grandnephews, as "cousins" for the purpose of church records, and the necessity for dispensations concerning marriages.

Yes, as far as I can determine, Antonino Tristaino did marry Benedetto's sister, as well as Benedetto's daughter.

As to Francesco Tristaino, he and Antonino did have different parents so we know they weren't siblings but don't know their relationship, if any, to each other.

It's possible that Benedetto Aceste and Antonina Sciorttino had two daughters named Maria, but more than likely each Maria was given multiple first names at baptism, and one of then would then be found in subsequent records under a different first name.

Erudita

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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 07 Jul 2016, 14:02

So far, I have only one record of baptism for Maria Aceste, dated 1845. I believe she is the Maria that was married in 1866. As far as I can tell, there is no mention of a previous marriage for Maria on the 1879 record, so I believe this Maria to be a sister, although I have not yet found (nor specifically looked for) a record of baptism for this second Maria.

I've always understood that the term cousin (or cugino) has a looser definition than how we use it to describe first cousins. I just never fully understood what makes a relative a third or fourth, etc... cousin.

I probably won't pursue the relationship between Antonio and Francesco Tristaino. At least not now. There are other records I'd like to locate first.

Thanks again Erudita. I wouldn't have been able to make nearly the number of discoveries that I have made in the past few months without your help.

Steve
Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 07 Jul 2016, 14:38

Steve
I just noticed something. A dispensation was obtained in the 1879 record as well, but the wording is different from the wording in the 1882 record, and I'm not sure about how to interpret it. Instead of "cousins in the second degree" for the spouses, I read "second in line equally related through marriage."
Erudita

sacesta
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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 07 Jul 2016, 15:21

I noticed the phrases "mandato di dispensando" and "autoriate dispensato" but failed to mention it.

I'm not sure how to interpret "second in line equally related through marriage" either. Do you think maybe Antonio Tristaino married Maria Aceste, former wife of Francesco Tristaino?

Antonio's becoming quite a character.
Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 07 Jul 2016, 17:49

Steve
The very last line of the 1879 record says that the stated above (mentioned above) Aceste was the spouse of deceased Francesco Tristaino. Did you put that dark line under that part of the record???
Erudita

sacesta
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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 07 Jul 2016, 18:18

Ha, ha! No. That dark line is part of the original record.

Well, this is very interesting. Francesco dies and Antonio marries his widow, Maria. Maria dies, then Antonio marries Maria's niece, Antonina.

I wonder what would have happened had Antonio survived Antonina? :)

Now, I am curious as to the relationship between Francesco and Antonio.
Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 07 Jul 2016, 18:55

Steve
Good thing you asked the question. I was so busy concentrating on the dispensation issue in the record that I never even noticed the last line which was underlined. I don't even want to entertain the notion of Antonio surviving Antonina. I guess now you really can't table the issue of the two Tristaino men, and their relationship to each other. You certainly have your work cut out for you.

I was just looking for something I read earlier and didn't mark and now I can't find it, but it had something to do with entire hamlets or neighborhoods being filled with these so-called "blood relatives." Maybe the author was thinking about your town in particular? Ha ha!

Erudita

sacesta
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Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby sacesta » 07 Jul 2016, 19:11

I have noticed searching through the church records of the Chiesa Cattolica di San Silvestri Papa in Calatafimi that there are only so many surnames on the indices - maybe 4 or 5 dozen at best.

Recurring names are Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacno, Zito, Vona, Suppa, Scandariato (my cousin's surname), Giangrasso, Avila, Ancona, Fimia, Fici, Mazzara, Pampalone, Leo, Tommaso, Fiorello, Anselmo, Catalano, Gallo, Agnelli, Vivona…

It would seem that the gene pool is rather small, but then when you consider how frequently Sicily was conquered and ruled by outsiders, maybe not so much…

Looking again at the above records, it's clear that Antonio and Francesco were not brothers. Antonio's parents are Benedetto Tristaino and Rosa Scimemmi and Francesco's parents appear to be Mario (?) and Antonia Saladino (sp?). Maybe they are cousins. I'll try to find records for the boys' fathers at my next visit to the FHC on Wednesday.

Steve
Steve Acesta

Researching Calatafimi, Trapani
Surnames Aceste, Papa, Cusenza, Gruppuso, Sciortino, Sparacino, Zito, and Vona.

Researching Montevago, Agrigento (Girgenti)
Surnames Infranco, La Rocca, Mandina, Bilello, Cacioppo, and Cardino.

erudita74
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Posts: 4843
Joined: 27 Aug 2012, 20:26

Re: In Cerca Di Conferma

Postby erudita74 » 07 Jul 2016, 19:35

sending you a private message, Steve

Erudita


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