help with documents - (updated 22 Apr)

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help with documents - (updated 22 Apr)

Postby Jamerson » 30 Dec 2006, 14:44

Hi,

Recently my grandfather has passed and I have been sorting through his old documents and found the following I think one is my grandmothers and grandfathers marriage certificate ? If someone could assist in translating this would be most appreciated

The other document is my grandfathers merchant seaman's papers. I am wondering if someone could also translate for me.

My questions are the following;

Is the change in surname common from Giormanni to Iurman common ?

I am confused as to locations listed in the seaman's papers - am I correct in assuming that valdarsa in Prov. Pola is listed as his birthplace. If so where is this ?

We have also recently discovered that my grandfather was a prisoner in Dachau Concentration Camp :( in his record there his birthplace was listed as Villanova, Prov. Pola. Are these two places the same ?


thank you very much for your help.

Image

Image

Image
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy !

Postby suanj » 30 Dec 2006, 17:41

well the first document is a extract of marriage act( 904 number act) between JURMAN Giuseppe and SOSSI Giuseppina, in trieste town, the 25 June 1950....
the other image it are no available.. I cannot open it... abt Villanova(right: Villanova d'Arsa;Pola province) and Valdarsa( Pola province) they are 2 little villages far only 1 Km.. Valdarsa town was founded for to give a village to people of Istrian- Roumanian language in the area...(also in Villanova speaking the same language)...

and abt the surname changing, most probable the Jurman in in local language and the second is the italianized version... in this link http://www.irredentismo.it/downloads/to ... _slava.xls you can see as the same towns are 2 different names in italian and in local language... and in this link you can read that Valdarsa are no in Italy currently http://www.consspalato.esteri.it/NR/rdo ... eduti1.pdf

best regards, suanj
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy !

Postby brujaojos » 30 Dec 2006, 23:14

Hi There,

Image


My opinion about this Marriage Extraction is:

Comune di Trieste
Official of Vital Records
Archive
Memorandum of Marriage
Act Number 904; part I; Series A; Volume III; year 1950

of Iurman Giuseppe and Sassi*(see note below) Giuseppina

married 25 June 1950 in Trieste

Image


My opinion of what this document states is:

Giormani Giuseppe
son of Antonio and Miclens8(see note below) Francesca
born in Valdarsa on 11 February 1923
residing in Valdarsa


Image


This image is very small and blurry. Can you repost it?


Now about the * noted above.

Per Pagine Bianche which is a telephone directory, the surnames of Sassi and Sossi (as Suanj stated) are both in the area of Trieste.

Sassi

Sossi


There are people still in Italy with the surname Giormani.

Giormani


And the surname Miclens does come from the town of Trieste also per various search information from the net.

I hope this helps some!
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy !

Postby Jamerson » 31 Dec 2006, 03:23

thank you for all very much for your help - as you can imagine with surname changes and changing borders makes this search difficult !

sanju I have reposted the image links below

http://img514.imageshack.us/img514/4398/save0006pl0.jpg

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/551/save0005tn8.jpg

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/4405/save0002jm0.jpg

you can click on the image to make it larger

From what you have said valdarsa and villanova are very close to each other - perhaps my granfather was born in valdarsa and moved to villanova. My granfather was born in 1923 during this time the entire region (Istria) was Italian now it is part of Croatia. My question is where would his birth records for villanova and valdarsa be located now and would they show italian citizenship ? :?:


Trish,

From your analysis my grandfathers mothers maiden name was Francesca Miclens (from trieste) and my Granfathers fathers name was Antonio Iurman ? This is very interesting ! :o

I will attempt to trace things further back however I am wondering if there are any well known professional genealogy services that people could recommend to assist
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy !

Postby suanj » 31 Dec 2006, 06:27

Hi Trish, yes is Sassi the surname.. abt MICLENS the right spell is MICLEUS, family of Roumanian origin stated from long time in Villanova d'Arsa... abt the your ancestor birthtown discrepance, the explanation is that Valdarsa (SUSGNEVIZZA called in italian language until 1922 and ditto .. Šušnjevica called in local language) it was a village and no a Municipality until 1922... in the 1922 the town is Municipality with Valdarsa name... so, if your ancestor born in Valdarsa in the 1923, this is right... for italian citizenship no problem for you.... thank for to post newly the images.. now no caprices from imageshack and I read all very welll........ good new year, suanj
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy !

Postby Jamerson » 31 Dec 2006, 07:48

suanj wrote:Hi Trish, yes is Sassi the surname.. abt MICLENS the right spell is MICLEUS, family of Roumanian origin stated from long time in Villanova d'Arsa... abt the your ancestor birthtown discrepance, the explanation is that Valdarsa (SUSGNEVIZZA called in italian language until 1922 and ditto .. Šušnjevica called in local language) it was a village and no a Municipality until 1922... in the 1922 the town is Municipality with Valdarsa name... so, if your ancestor born in Valdarsa in the 1923, this is right... for italian citizenship no problem for you.... thank for to post newly the images.. now no caprices from imageshack and I read all very welll........ good new year, suanj


Thank you sanj

How would I go about getting Giuseppe Giormani (Iurman) birth certificate from Valdarsa (SUSGNEVIZZA) would the italian government have this. ?
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby Jamerson » 01 Jan 2007, 09:46

I am very excited to report that I have found a new series of documents which I have posted below.

http://img74.imageshack.us/img74/8241/i ... resjx8.jpg

http://img293.imageshack.us/img293/1601 ... wreoq7.jpg


Could some please translate in particular i am interested in the entry next to "
cittadinanza" for giuseppe.

thank you very much ! :) :)
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby suanj » 01 Jan 2007, 09:59

great:
NAME
Jurman Giuseppe
FATHER:
Antonio
MOTHER:
Francesca MICLEUS
BIRTH:
11 Feb 1923
TO:
Villanova di Valdarsa
CIVIL STATUS:
Married
CITIZENSHIP:
It have opted for italian citizenship conservation
PROFESSION:
Baker
RESIDENCE:
Trieste
ADDRESS:
Via Roiano 569
etc...
Giuseppina is/was ITALIAN citizen.. on the ID Card and on marriage act, her surname it seems SOSSI so until 8 aug 1950 they was italians... this ID CARDS are very importants for you...

the second is marriage's act made in the 25 oct 1950 of Giuseppe and Giuseppina, and are the data that you already know, and the date marriage:

-in Trieste the 25 june 1950 (number act: 904 of civil registries 1950 year, II° second part, A serie)...

regards, suanj
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby brujaojos » 01 Jan 2007, 17:33

Hi Everyone,

Happy New Year to everyone! :D

Suanj: Thanks for the information! :) I too saw Miclens and Micleus. Also, both surnames came to the USA from Trieste. :)

It's nice to work as a team! :)
Trish

Here is the information on the mother's side from the cards you posted. Love the pictures!!!! You are so lucky to have found such records!


SURNAME:Sossi of Iurman (married to Iurman)

FATHER: Giuseppe

MOTHER: Maria Ghersele (Ghersel & Gherseli show up)

BIRTH: 8 September 1928 in Trieste

CIVIL STATUS: Married

CITIZENSHIP: Italian

PROFESSION: tailor/dressmaker

RESIDENCE: Trieste

ADDRESS: Roiano Verniclis 569
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby suanj » 01 Jan 2007, 17:40

Hi Trish, good new year!!!!!
Miclens don't exist and probally the surname is mistaken on the travel's manifest... also the Giuseppina mother surname is GherselLi... from what I know, with italian law n°17 of 10 jan 1926, the istro-roumanian people could to italianizer the surname, and the JURMAN become: Giurman, Giormani, Donnani, Iurman, Yurman.... but this is no the Giuseppe Jurman case, because on the italian document of 1950 is always Jurman! great Giuseppe! many kisses, suanj
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby Jamerson » 04 Jan 2007, 11:30

brujaojos wrote:Hi Everyone,

Happy New Year to everyone! :D

Suanj: Thanks for the information! :) I too saw Miclens and Micleus. Also, both surnames came to the USA from Trieste. :)

It's nice to work as a team! :)
Trish

Here is the information on the mother's side from the cards you posted. Love the pictures!!!! You are so lucky to have found such records!


SURNAME:Sossi of Iurman (married to Iurman)

FATHER: Giuseppe

MOTHER: Maria Ghersele (Ghersel & Gherseli show up)

BIRTH: 8 September 1928 in Trieste

CIVIL STATUS: Married

CITIZENSHIP: Italian

PROFESSION: tailor/dressmaker

RESIDENCE: Trieste

ADDRESS: Roiano Verniclis 569



This is interesting as Giuseppe (grandfather) emigrated to Australia(not the USA) I believe that his brother(s)? emigrated to the USA. Guiseppe I believe went to the USA after staying in OZ for a little while then returned back to Australia to live permanently talk about moving around alot ! :lol:
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help !! documents from missing comune ?!

Postby Jamerson » 04 Jan 2007, 12:36

Thank you everyone for your help and guidance.

I have located my grandmothers comune and sent a request for documents (thank you Suanj for your help with this).

However my grandfathers birth certificate seems to be more of an issue - on the full marriage certificate his place of birth is Villanoava di Valdarsa.

see http://wikipedia.kataweb.it/wiki/Valdarsa for history.

Basically the problem is that this town is no longer part of Italy therefore I am unsure where the records would have been kept - would have they been relocated back to Italy or are they still currently there. :cry:

My question is then;

1. Where would the records for the Italians that were born in istria when it was Italian be located ?

2. If the records have been lost / destroyed what options do I have re proving birth - would the identity card I posted early that I have from Trieste be sufficient as official proof ? :cry: :cry:
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby suanj » 04 Jan 2007, 18:42

Hi jamerson, about Giuseppe birthact, all civil records of people born in a town, well they are always in the town, and the records don't change location if the town change the government, but the date of birth is a prof that the child is born in a town that in the date was under italian government, so the child it was a italian citizen for all effects, as you can read very well from Giuseppe ID card, he no renounced to italian citizenship... from my contacts I know that, currently, the old Valdarsa is a hamleth of the new town called RASA so you can contact the Town Hall and this is the phone number:
OPCINA (Common of)RASA tel. +38 552 874 239 best regards, suanj
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Re: help with documents - one easy one not so easy ! (update

Postby suanj » 04 Jan 2007, 18:51

jamerson, I contacted a Jurman descendant and she replied me, now i wait the right Villanova di Valdarsa address of Civil records office and as to make the request.. so I let you know the next reply... as you can see, I remember your search ! kisses, suanj
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Re: help with documents - the quest continues ! (updates)

Postby Jamerson » 14 Jan 2007, 05:27

Hi Everyone,

Have been tracing together the movements of Giuseppe however I need some help translating these details on his merchant marine papers - I believe that they are embarkation / disembarkation records ? an if i read them correctly he went from pola (pula) to trieste ? - however I don't see any ship name help !

http://img77.imageshack.us/img77/664/save0022ds4.jpg

http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/7734/save0021hf9.jpg

http://img75.imageshack.us/img75/796/save0020la8.jpg

http://img237.imageshack.us/img237/9382/save0019sh7.jpg

http://img162.imageshack.us/img162/6378/save0018je4.jpg
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