please explain

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please explain

Postby Edmondo » 12 Mar 2003, 19:28

Who can translate AND explain what this means?
<BR>
<BR>- localita' di tipo CENTRO ABITATO
<BR>- localita' di tipo NUCLEO ABITATO
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please explain

Postby Maurizio » 13 Mar 2003, 14:29

HI Edmondo. <BR>Not so easy to translate. Literally: <BR>\"Kind of resort: Inhabited (or built-up) centre\" <BR>\"Kind of resort: Inhabited (or built-up) residential complex\". <BR>The two expression are quite equivalent: a \"Centro abitato\" is a town (of not too big dimensions, in the common use), while a \"Nucleo abitato\" is a smaller town. <BR>The correct interpretation of their meanings depends on the context where the two expression are used: check in the resource where you found them if there\'s a legend explaining what\'s meant for each of the two expression. <BR>Otherwise, my suggestion would be to take a \"Centro abitato\" as a township (=\"Comune\"), and a \"nucleo abitato\" as an hamlet (=\"Frazione\" or \"borgata\", i.e. a village or a residential area administratively depending form a Comune\"). <BR>Hope this helps. <BR>Ciao, Maurizio <BR> <BR>
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Postby ptimber » 13 Mar 2003, 15:29

Ciao figlio bello Maurizio. Sono stato nella Floprida far sciando per evitare il brutto freddo quest\'inverno e sono tornatro a una bella sorpresa ched da molto tempo non abbiamo sentito notizie di lei e avao dei pensieri.. Peter
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Postby Edmondo » 13 Mar 2003, 17:59

Thanks Maurizio for your first answer but can you also answer this: <BR> <BR>BALDISSERO TORINESE = comune (centro abitato) <BR>RIVODORA = frazione of BALDISSERO TORINESE (centro abitato) <BR>SAN QUIRICO = ?????? of BALDISSERO TORINESE (centro nucleo) <BR>TETTI BARBASSO = ?????? of BALDISSERO TORINESE (centro nucleo) <BR> <BR>What are SAN QUIRICO and TETTI BARBASSO if RIVODORA is a frazione? Are these also frazioni or something else? <BR> <BR> <BR>
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Postby Maurizio » 13 Mar 2003, 21:02

Hi Edmondo. <BR> <BR>I think Tetti Barbasso and San Quirico may be classified as \"Località\" or \"Borgata\". <BR> <BR>But if you ask me the difference between a \"frazione\" and a \"borgata\", I don\'t have a precise answer: it\'s one of the things one never wonders about. <BR>Anyway, according to my Italian dictionnary, a frazione is a \"centro abitato isolato dal comune da cui dipende amministrativamente\", while the second is a \"small group of houses\". <BR> <BR>Administratively speaking, all residents in the \"capoluogo\" (the centre or the main portion) of Baldissero, in the frazione of Rivodora and in the \"borgate\" of Tetti Barbasso and San Quirico are citizen of the township of Baldissero (this means they all vote to elect one only mayor, and they have to refer to one only City Hall, located in the \"Capoluogo\"). <BR> <BR>Historically-geographically speaking, all these names are use to indicate different part of a territory. They are referred to different settlement grown up in centuries in a certain area: wherever there\'s a group of more than one-two houses close to each other, that place was commonly given a name to be universally aknowledged. This process had originally nothing to do with administrative matters. <BR> <BR>Pratically speaking, the definition of \"frazione\" to an hamlet is useful to more precisely indicate an address: in a frazione there is very often a certain number of street with an own name, while a \"borgata\" or \"Località\" is usually so small that any other indication is requested to locate an address. <BR> <BR>Just to let you understand, if you write a letter to Mr. Pippo Rossi, you\'ll have to write: <BR> <BR>- if he lives in the \"capoluogo\": <BR>Mr. Pippo Rossi <BR>via Roma 1 <BR>10020 Baldissero Canavese (TO) <BR> <BR>- if he lives in a \"frazione\": <BR>Mr. Pippo Rossi <BR>via Milano 1 <BR>Frazione Rivodora <BR>10020 Baldissero Canavese (TO) <BR> <BR>- if he lives in a \"borgata\": <BR>Mr. Pippo Rossi <BR>località Tetti Barbassi <BR>10020 Baldissero Canavese (TO <BR> <BR>I hope this may help you (even if I\'m not sure I didn\'t baffled you more than you were). <BR> <BR>Ciao, Maurizio <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR> <BR>
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please explain

Postby Edmondo » 13 Mar 2003, 22:03

Thanks, you have made it clear and you have been a great help! <BR> <BR>I needed this information for my new project: a soundex searchable database with ALL Comuni, Frazioni e Borgate in Italia.
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Postby Edmondo » 18 Mar 2003, 23:11

Both Italian and English are not my native language. <BR>What would be the correct english translation for: <BR> <BR>- comune (town?) <BR>- frazione (hamlet?) <BR>- borgate (????)
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Postby ptimber » 19 Mar 2003, 01:37

Comune = a community with its own politcial and civil adminsitration <BR> <BR>Frazione= a section, a parish, a neighborhood or previously absorbed adjoining community or a community administratively dependent on an adjoining community <BR> <BR>Borgata=A village <BR> <BR>With all due respects to my good friend Maurizio and subject to his zealous correction. Peter
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Postby Maurizio » 19 Mar 2003, 14:02

With all due respect to my \"dad\" Peter (who was able in a few simple sentences to explain what I needed a page to express), I think what Edmondo is asking us now is a single English word to translate each one of these three definitions. <BR>I\'m not English mother-tongue, but according to my dictionnaries and to my opinion I think that the better (or the less worse) versions could be: <BR>\"borgata\"=\"Hamlet\" <BR>\"Frazione\"= \"Section\" <BR>\"Comune\"= \"Municipality\" or \"Township\" (I\'d personally avoid \"town\", whose translation in Italian is \"Città\"). <BR> <BR>Ciao, Maurizio <BR>
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Postby Edmondo » 19 Mar 2003, 15:31

Maurizio, <BR> <BR>You understood it correctly, thanks for your answers, and Peter, you too of course thanks for your help. <BR> <BR>I have send you the url by PM where you can see the latest project I am working on, then you will also understand why I was asking this. <BR>This new module for my site is working allready but still far from finnished. you can give it a try if you like and tell me what you think of it. <BR> <BR>Please, Peter and Maurizio, tell me; Are you really father and son or are you joking about this? :-D
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Postby ptimber » 19 Mar 2003, 15:44

No we are not father and son by blood or genes, however, we do enjoy my getting abruptly to the point and his verbal neopolitan crooning!.... By the way I have sen off for a legal explanation of the Centro abitato and nucleo abitato and when it arrives I will let you know. I am also concerned about the word \"hamlet\" which may mean village but could also mean a collection of houses or an inn at a cross roads. I will serach out the legal definition which I believe is english in origin. Peter
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Postby Edmondo » 19 Mar 2003, 23:32

To check if I have understand it 100% <BR> <BR>Township = Comune <BR>Section = Frazione (centro abbitato) <BR>Hamlet = Borgata (centro nucleo)
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Postby ptimber » 22 Mar 2003, 05:57

hamlet is not a Borgate(village).. it is a collection of houses, no shops and no churches and no public offices and dependent upon nearby village. Peter
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Postby Maurizio » 23 Mar 2003, 20:45

Peter, sorry to disagree with you, but that's exactly what a borgata is, at least in rural areas: a group of houses, separated from the Comune they depend on.
Also town and big cities may have their borgate (=neighbhoorod), not necessarily separated from the rest of the town: and in this case, "Hamlet" would not be the better translation.
But a borgata in Rome or Naples is never mentioned in an address, while you could find "Borgata", or "Località" used as an indication in postal and legal addresses for rural area: That's why I think "hamlet" is the better definition to use for Edmondo in his database.
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Postby ptimber » 24 Mar 2003, 00:40

The Italian dictionary I have states: BORGATA=VILLAGE


CASALE=HAMLET

Since the dictionary may be legalistic and not conforming to current usage I defer to your sagacity figlio bello. Peter
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