'storico' letter

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'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 25 Jun 2008, 15:46

Hi,

I could use some help with translation, and also advice as to whether asking for two is too much or too confusing, etc. I tried to provide as much information as possible -- do they need the dates as well as the years for the info I do have?

[address, date, etc.]

Egregi signori,

I am looking for information about my great grandparents, who lived in Mazzarra Sant'Andrea. I would like to request a certificato di stato di famiglia storico for my great grandfather Celestino Ferlazzo, a resident of Mazzarra Sant'Andrea from around 1897 until his death sometime before 1932. I do not know where he was born, but he would probably have been born between 1870-1875. His wife's name was Concetta Alosi, but I do not know where or when she was born.

However, their children were born and raised in Mazzarra:

Nunziata, 1897 (died young)
Giuseppe, 1899
Carmelo, 1901 (born in America, emigrated again later)
Ernesto, 1903 (emigrated to America)
Antonino, 1907 (died young)
Marianina, 1909

The microfilmed records that are available indicate there was one other Ferlazzo family living in Mazzarra at this time: Ignazio Ferlazzo, born in Gioiosa Marea. He married Maria Simone in Mazzarra in 1893 and had at least three children: Giuseppe (1894), Nunziata (1896), and Maria Carmela (1898). I think that Ignazio and Celestino were brothers, but I am not sure because I do not know for certain where Celestino Ferlazzo was born.

I hate to imposition you with two requests, but if you find that Celestino Ferlazzo is from Gioiosa Marea, would you send me a certificato di stato di famiglia for Ignazio Ferlazzo as well? I would greatly appreciate your assistance with this, as I am trying to trace my family's roots and contact living relatives.

Please send me the certificato di stato di famiglia storico for Celestino Ferlazzo (and Ignazio Ferlazzo, if appropriate) on non-legal paper. If there are service charges, please contact me at [email] and let me know how much and what form of payment would be best.

Thank you very much for your assistance!


Distinti saluti,

[me]
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 26 Jun 2008, 16:58

No responses?

Babelfish gives me this:

Sto cercando le informazioni sul mio grande - nonni, che hanno vissuto in Mazzarra Sant' Andrea. Vorrei chiedere uno storico di famiglia dei Di del di stato di certificato per il mio grande - Celestino di prima generazione Ferlazzo, un residente di Mazzarra Sant' Andrea a partire da intorno 1897 fino alla sua morte un momento prima di 1932. Non so dove nasceva, ma probabilmente sarebbe nato fra 1870-1875. Il suo wife' il nome di s era Concetta Alosi, ma non so dove o quando nasceva.

Tuttavia, i loro bambini erano nati ed alzati in Mazzarra:

Nunziata, 1897 (giovani morti)
Giuseppe, 1899
Carmelo, 1901 (sopportato in America, emigrata ancora più successivamente)
Ernesto, 1903 (emigrato in America)
Antonino, 1907 (giovani morti)
Marianina, 1909

Le annotazioni microfilmate che sono disponibili indicano che ci era altra una famiglia di Ferlazzo che vive in Mazzarra attualmente: Ignazio Ferlazzo, sopportato in Gioiosa Marea. Ha sposato Maria Simone in Mazzarra in 1893 ed ha avuto almeno tre bambini: Giuseppe (1894), Nunziata (1896) e Maria Carmela (1898). Penso che Ignazio e Celestino siano stati i fratelli, ma non sono sicuro perché non so per sicuro dove Celestino Ferlazzo nasceva.

Lo odio all'imposizione con due richieste, ma se voi trovate che Celestino Ferlazzo proviene da Gioiosa Marea, mi trasmetteste un famiglia dei Di del di stato di certificato per Ignazio Ferlazzo pure? Notevolmente apprezzerei la vostra assistenza con questo, come sto provando a seguire il mio family' radici di s e parenti viventi del contatto.

Prego trasmettami lo storico di famiglia dei Di del di stato di certificato per Celestino Ferlazzo (ed Ignazio Ferlazzo, se adatto) su carta non-legal. Se ci sono spese per i servizi, selo metta in contatto con prego a [email] e lascilo conoscere quanto e che forma di pagamento sarebbe la cosa migliore. Grazie molto per la vostra assistenza!

Will that work? Other questions from first post still stand, if anyone would be so kind as to reply.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby Lucap » 27 Jun 2008, 10:33

No, it doesn't work 8O

I'll try to help you (not today, however)

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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby Lucap » 27 Jun 2008, 16:37

I made some change.

warriorrabbit wrote:Ufficiale dello Stato Civile
Comune di Mazzarrà Sant'Andrea
Via Principe Umberto, 1
98056 Mazzarrà di Sant'Andrea
(Me)

Sto cercando informazioni sui miei bisnonni originari di Mazzarrà Sant' Andrea. In particolare vorrei chiedere un certificato storico di famiglia del mio bisnonno Celestino Ferlazzo, residente a Mazzarrà Sant'Andrea dal 1897 fino alla sua morte, nel 1932. La sua probabile data di nascita è tra il 1870 e il 1875, ma non so dove sia avvenuta. Il nome di sua moglie era Concetta Alosi, ma di lei non ho dati anagrafici.

Tuttavia i loro bambini sono nati praticamente tutti in Mazzarrà:

Nunziata, 1897 (morta infante)
Giuseppe, 1899
Carmelo, 1901 (nato in America, rientrato in Italia ed emigrato nuovamente)
Ernesto, 1903 (emigrato in America)
Antonino, 1907 (morto giovane)
Marianina, 1909

Ho informazioni che indicano la presenza di un'altra famiglia Ferlazzo vivente in Mazzarrà nello stesso periodo: quella di Ignazio, originario di Gioiosa Marea, sposato con Maria Simone in Mazzarrà nel 1893, padre di almeno tre bambini: Giuseppe (1894), Nunziata (1896) e Maria Carmela (1898). Penso che Ignazio e Celestino fossero fratelli, ma di questo non sono sicuro e gradirei trovarne conferma dai vostri dati.

Capisco di chiedere molto, ma se voi trovaste che Celestino Ferlazzo era originario di Gioiosa Marea e quindi fratello di Ignazio, mi inviereste un certificato storico di famiglia anche di quest'ultimo?

I due certificati possono essere redatti in carta libera. Per eventuali spese vi prego di trasmettermi tramite email gli importi e le modalità di pagamento.
Grazie infinite per il vostro aiuto.


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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 02 Jul 2008, 09:42

Thanks very much for this! I only just saw this, as I haven't been able to get into the forum for a while now.

I thought that if they were digging around in the records anyhow (same time period, same surname), asking for two certificates would be a good idea and would ultimately save them some time and effort. (As I'm reasonably sure the two are brothers.) But if asking for two at once is a bad idea, please let me know.

Again, thanks very much for this!!

I'm running out of options for finding Celestino's place of birth/parents, and if this doesn't work I'll probably have to mail bomb all the current residents with that last name.

Unfortunately the birth years (1872-1874) are missing from the Gioiosa Marea films they're supposed to be on, and those exact same years seem to be missing from the military records in Messina's Archivio di Stato, too. Strange, really.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 02 Jul 2008, 10:23

Er...Just one other thing. I think now it says he died around 1932, when I had 'sometime before 1932.' All I know is that he was alive in 1909 (birth of last child), and dead in 1932 (when my grandfather married). However, he might even have been dead by 1924, when my grandfather emigrated. We just don't know.

So, I don't want to confuse them any more than necessary (although it's highly unlikely there's more than one Celestino Ferlazzo there). Grammatically speaking, can I replace "nel 1932" with Babelfish's "un momento prima di 1932"? (Or something else?) Or do you think it doesn't really matter?
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 17 Aug 2008, 21:46

Yesterday I was all excited because I received a response from Mazzarra in the mail. However, that was short-lived because from their response it doesn't seem as though they understood my request (I sent Lucap's translation, above).

They said:

"Facendo seguito alla sua richiesta e dopo aver eseguito le dovute ricerche, si communica che negli archive di qesto Comune non esiste foglio do famiglia intestato a Ferlazzo Celestino o alla moglie Alosi Concetta.

Si inviano i certificati di nascita dei figli: Nunziata, Giuseppe, Carmelo, Ernesto, Antonino e Marianna tutti nati in Mazzarra' Sant'Andrea i cui atti sono iscritti nei relativi registri di nascita di questo Comune.

Si comunica inoltre, per aiutarla nelle sue ricerche, che Ferlazzo Ernesto nato a Mazzarra' Sant'Andrea il 31/07/03 risulta immigrato in question Comune in data 24/11/1950 con provenienza dal Comune Taormina; alla luce di questo, mi permetto di consigliarle di effettuare ulteriori ricerche nel predetto Comune di Taormina.

Restando a disposizione per ogni ulteriore chiarimento."

And they included the birth certificates for all the children.

I don't know whether to try again. Did they misunderstand, and think I was looking for a birth certificate for Celestino? That's what it seems like.

I was under the impression (via Trafford Cole) that there were censuses in the early 1900s, wherein the parents (who weren't from Mazzarra) would have said where they were from. That was the whole reason for requesting a storico. I already knew where/when all the kids were born.

I'm very frustrated. I have not been able to go any further than my grandfather on this side, because we don't know where his parents were from. I thought the storico would tell me what I needed to know so I could move on.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby johnnyonthespot » 17 Aug 2008, 22:42

I think they are saying that the Ferlazzo family roots appear to have been in Comune di Taormina and they suggest you continue your research with that village (http://en.comuni-italiani.it/083/097/).
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 17 Aug 2008, 22:54

I think that's just where Ernesto (my great uncle) was, or where he emigrated from, in 1950. He had emigrated to the US years earlier and had a family and a job in Hollywood, but back then if you didn't return every six months you lost your citizenship. He forgot and lost his citizenship. But after 1950.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby elba » 18 Aug 2008, 11:24

This is the part of their letter regarding the document I think you want. I hope the translation helps.
elba

Si comunica inoltre, per aiutarla nelle sue ricerche, che Ferlazzo Ernesto nato a Mazzarra' Sant'Andrea il 31/07/03 risulta immigrato in question Comune in data 24/11/1950 con provenienza dal Comune Taormina; alla luce di questo, mi permetto di consigliarle di effettuare ulteriori ricerche nel predetto Comune di Taormina.




Translation:
We advise you also, to help you with your research, that Ferlazzo Ernesto born in Mazzarra' Sant'Andrea on 31/07/03 shows as having immigrated to the Comune in question on the 24/11/1950 from the Comune of Taormina; in light of this, allow me to advise you to carry out further research in the mentioned Comune of Taormina
If you think education is expensive - try ignorance!
"Gente di Mare Genealogy"
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 18 Aug 2008, 15:45

Actually, who I'm stuck on is Celestino Ferlazzo.

Ernesto Ferlazzo is his son, he lost his citizenship and remained in Italy, fathered an illegitimate son we can't find, and died. Not worried about Ernesto. The other respondent mistakenly assumed that's what I was looking for. It's not what I was looking for. Please, let's all forget about Ernesto in 1950.

What I am confused about is all the rest of the letter. Were they looking for the wrong thing? Were they looking for a birth certificate for Celestino? I know he wasn't born in Mazzarra. (It is most probably he was born in Gioiosa Marea, but we can't confirm this.) Was the initial letter not clear? Should I try again, asking again for a storico? I really get the sense they were looking for birth records.

Trafford Cole said (p. 63 in my edition) there were censuses from 1911 on that would have said where Celestino and Concetta Alosi were from. How can I get them to look at the censuses?

I am frustrated and desperate. The storico was my best hope. Otherwise, we have no idea where Celestino was from, and also Concetta. I also only have huge spans for possible death years, so I can't ask them to look those up.

Does anyone have any insight in how to get the info I'm looking for re: Celestino and Concetta. Please.

I thought asking for the storico was what I needed to do to get that. Apparently they thought I was asking after the children, but I already had all of that information.

They don't seem to have done a storico at all, because if they had they would have given me the death and marriage dates of the children. And the death dates of Celestino and Concetta.

How can I get the information I seek? Clearly the original letter (see Lucap above) didn't work.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby johnnyonthespot » 18 Aug 2008, 15:55

warriorrabbit wrote:Actually, who I'm stuck on is Celestino Ferlazzo.

Ernesto Ferlazzo is his son, he lost his citizenship and remained in Italy, fathered an illegitimate son we can't find, and died. Not worried about Ernesto. The other respondent mistakenly assumed that's what I was looking for. It's not what I was looking for. Please, let's all forget about Ernesto in 1950.


My impression remains that Ernesto's family (thus, Celestino, his father) came to Mazzarra' Sant'Andrea from Comune di Taormina and that you need to continue your research of Celestino in Comune di Taormina.

Perhaps I am totally misreading however...
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 18 Aug 2008, 16:32

No, that is merely where Ernesto was in 1950. It has absolutely nothing to do with Celestino and Concetta pre 1897.

Can everyone just forget about Ernesto, please. What he was doing in Taormina in 1950 has nothing to do with the rest of the family.

Celestino most likely came from Gioiosa Marea, but the microfilms are damaged for those years and I've gotten no response from the letter I sent to the comune.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby warriorrabbit » 18 Aug 2008, 17:03

If I could just re-focus this discussion/request.

Trafford Cole said (p. 63 in my edition) there were censuses from 1911 on. How can I get them to look at the censuses?

How can I get them to create a true storico using the census, which would give me not only the origin of Celestino, but also the origin of Concetta (which was thought to be Barcellona, but I could find no birth or marriage record there) and the death dates for Celestino and Concetta, which currently fall outside the 1909 cut-off for the microfilms?

The state archives told me they'd found Celestino's military records, and asked me to send 5 euros. I sent them cash, certified, and they received it on July 16. However, I've yet to receive the records. I don't know what's happened there. While the records, if they ever arrive, will hopefully confirm Celestino's birth in Gioiosa Marea, they won't tell me when he died or where Concetta is from. So I'd really, really like a storico from Mazzarra.
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Re: 'storico' letter

Postby Lucap » 18 Aug 2008, 17:40

warriorrabbit wrote:... So I'd really, really like a storico from Mazzarra.

The problem is this:
"Facendo seguito alla sua richiesta e dopo aver eseguito le dovute ricerche, si comunica che negli archivi di questo Comune non esiste foglio di famiglia intestato a Ferlazzo Celestino o alla moglie Alosi Concetta.

They say: It doesn't exist a "foglio di famiglia" for Celestino (a foglio di famiglia is an historic card headed to Celestino from which they can extract the data). It is, however, possible to create a "foglio di famiglia" with an archive research (that they will never do!!!)
This morning I phoned to the Stato Civile of Mazzarrà and asked for some info about Celestino. The officier said me to call back tomorrow.
I hope something will "appear" :wink:

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