Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

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mauricioom
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Newbie here, i have a question on italo-slovenian genealogy!

Postby mauricioom » 12 Aug 2006, 06:36

Hi!
I'm Mauricio Olivares, i've been conducting a search for my ancesters and i found a man, the great grandfather of my great grandfather, that draw my attention to this part of the world, Italy and Slovenia.

His full name, (taken from his marriage record in Spain, and 'cause of that some names are probabbly misspeled) is Joahn Joseph María Wolfgang Mucha von Benistein Bolfienstein Hochenthal Rosenfeld Petazzi Heizi Visini und Montabello Edler von Sehwaifinuk Desdfoil Röm Reichs Priter Freyherr von Loque Prelose Rizmange stiack und San Abas, the name he took when he moved to Spain around 1800 was Wolfgango de Mucha... I've found that this person was born in a place called Carginal or Corgniel (probably misspeled also!) in the county of Görz in what it used to be the Trieste Bishopry (or is it called Parish?) that belonged to the Austrian Empire in 1758... the problem is that i don't know where is the town of Carginal in present day! if it even exists today! or how is it called now! or where is it now: Slovenia or Italy!...

What i do know is that no matter in what country of those two he was born his lastnames denote german and italian ascend, maybe other countries too, and he once clamed in some letter to the spanish king tha he was from a really important family from Carniola, which i think now is Ljubljana!..

I'd like you, if you want, to help me out in finding this place he was born in and if you can tell me something about those surnames and titles (i only know about "Edler" and "Freyherr")...

I thank you in advance...
Mauricio Olivares

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Re: Any info on this aristochratic family...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 09:58

Görz was german name of GORIZIA italian town.. about Carginal or Corgniel .... I believe that could be CORGNALE town (italian name) currently in Slovenia with new name: LOKEV.. but for to help it will be better to read the document with this name town.. for other your question, is necessary a resuming with name and date and what you need with precision..

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Re: Any info on this aristochratic family...

Postby jcsm400 » 12 Aug 2006, 10:22

Here is a good place to start for Austrian genealogy....provides many helpful links.

http://www.cyndislist.com/austria.htm

jcsm
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Re: Any info on this aristochratic family...

Postby mauricioom » 12 Aug 2006, 12:11

Thnkz for the link and for the Carginal candidate i'll be searching for those two tomorrow, it's kind of late hear now, thank tou very much jcsm and suanj!

Mauricio Olivares

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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby mauricioom » 12 Aug 2006, 12:13

I kinda want every one to see this post 'cause is kind of urgent for me to get some knowledge 'bout this person/families/place, thankz again for you help
Greetings
Mauricio Olivares

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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 19:25

Mucha surname is a jew german surname http://www.avotaynu.com/books/MenkNames.htm
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 20:07

the count Petazzi was in Lokev( Corgnale) sure from 1633, but the counts Petazzi coming from Trieste and had the noble title in XII° century... from a first initial search seem that the count Petazzi had many lands, also in Croatia... the surname is a variation of Petacci:
-PETACCI:
Cognome PETACCI
Dimora principale Trieste (main residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio GbCR
Titolo nobiliare (noble title) Blasone troncato

http://www.sgmprogetti.it/araldica/main.asp
----------------------
-PETAZZI:

Cognome PETAZZI
Dimora principale Milano (main residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio GbCR
Titolo nobiliare Blasone bandato
------------------

Cognome PETAZZI
Dimora principale Possedimenti vari (various residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio BAMan (source)
Titolo nobiliare(noble title) Nobile S.R.I.



Cognome PETAZZI
Dimora principale Con varie Dimore ( various residences)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivi St Arald (source)
Parentele PULICE ( surname of relationship)
Cognome correlato Vedi DE PECTATIS (ditto)
Titolo nobiliare (noble title) Nobili dei Baroni
http://www.sgmprogetti.it/araldica/main.asp
-----------------------------------

-VISINI:
Cognome VISINI
Dimora principale Gorizia ( main residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio GbCR ( source)
Parentele PETTI ( Petti relationship)
Titolo nobiliare (noble title) Conti Palatini (Palatinian counts)

http://www.sgmprogetti.it/araldica/main.asp
-------------------------

-MONTEBELLO:

Cognome MONTEBELLO
Dimora principale Vicenza (main residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio GbCR (source)
Titolo nobiliare(noble title) Barone


Cognome MONTEBELLO
Dimora principale Bologna (main residence)
Fonti bibliografiche Archivio GbCR 8source)
Parentele DE MERCURIO ( surname in relationship)
Titolo nobiliare (noble title) Blasone inquartato

http://www.sgmprogetti.it/araldica/main.asp for a genealogic tree you can contact it...
you know the birthdate: 5 sept 1758 .. http://gw.geneanet.org/index.php3?b=mau ... ng;n=mucha in your webpage you say :
Wolfgango de Mucha (a veces escrito Mussa), ingeniero, matemático y siderúrgico que procedente de Budapest llego a La Cavada en 1790 para trabajar en las Reales Fábricas de Artillería. ...????


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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 20:26

I believe that this is a info interesting:
Juan Bautista Francisco Melchior de Mucha gestorben 1795 Corgnale,
Gorizia
. Familie in Laibach und Trieste. Suche Ahnen und Nachfahren.
Habe schon Descendenz in Spanien und Mexiko.
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby mauricioom » 12 Aug 2006, 21:50

I'm terribly sorry about the triple and double post! if the mod could delete those would be cool, i'm reaaaaally lousy with computers, they seem to not like me!...
Suanj, about the Budapest thing i'm talking about some info a friend told me, that this guy traveled to Spain from Budapest, wht he was doing in Budapest? i don't know, maybe this part of the info is wrong...
Thankyou so much for the surnames help, i hope it'll help to track down more about this family... there were Petazzi in Lokev and a completely diferent Petazzi family in Trieste or were the same?, how do you know that the count Petazzi was definetly in Lokev in 1633?...

and fianlly... OMG! were did you found that about Juan Bautista Francisco Melchor de Mucha? i have no idea what it sais in german but it sais Corgnale! and Spanien and Mexiko! i have no idea who this guy is!, could he be Wolfgang's father? could you elaborate?...
Thank you sooo much!

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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 21:55

Hi first point :
Juan Bautista Francisco Melchor de Mucha gestorben 1795 Corgnale, Gorizia. Familie in Laibach und Trieste. Suche Ahnen und Nachfahren.
Habe schon Descendenz in Spanien und Mexiko.

source:
http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/read/AU ... 1106008122
as you can read, CORGNALE is right, as my suggestion.. I hope that you can contact the author topic... regards, suanj
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 21:58

second point:
1633 Petazzi in Corgnale/Lokev:
I'm sure because is a document
http://vodnik.kras-carso.com/?jezik=ITA ... 1&vsebina=

some detail in english

http://vodnik.kras-carso.com/?jezik=ANG ... 1&vsebina=
http://www.progeo.se/news/1_2001/cave.html
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 22:00

third point:

about the PetaCCI nobles in Trieste( i found that is a variation of Petazzi) I don't know more, I wrote already the source and for to know more you can order the record by payment... the records that i wrote are free.. suanj
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 22:13

The Petazzi was from Trieste and in the time they moved ( especially male line) in various residences, because they was landowners also... here are some Petazzi
http://worldconnect.rootsweb.com/cgi-bi ... cno=160378

from San Servolo Isle in Venezia
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 22:28

this long article just for let you know that the Petazzi was in this lands:


Kostel Castel story

Kostel and aristocrat Keglevic family Ruins of Kostel In order to understand the medieval history of Pregrada, we must bear in mind that main political and business factor of these times were feudal lords - kings, and owners of much land. Since Pregrada parish had belonged to Kostel feudal lord, its lords were both owners of the land and church patrons. It is impossible to say when Kostel was erected. According to E. Laszowski, it was built in the 13th century, between 1260 and 1264, during war between Czech King Otokar II and Hungarian King Bela IV.

Laszowski assumes that Kostel was built by some of Otokar's vasals or even by Otokar himself. Until Celjski family disappeared in 1456, Kostel was in their heads. They were also counts of Varazdin County, bans of Croatia and Slavonia and almost whole land between Zagorje and Medjimurje had belonged to them. In year 1517, Kostel gets into hands of George of Brandenburg because he marries Beatrice Frankopan, John Korvin's widow. John Korvin died 1504. George had turned into financial difficulties and was forced to sell the castle to Peter Keglevic of Buzim for a price of 13.000 Forints. It happened on 21 December 1523. After the building of Gorica castle, Keglevics leave

Kostel and the castle was devastated by the end of the 17th century. The Keglevics Old Croatian aristocrats, family Keglevic of Buzim was forced to leave their possessions in Bosnia before the Turkish invasion. They found their refuge in Croatian Zagorje. Petar Keglevic has left his possessions in Bosnia in year 1521. He bought Kostel and Krapina possessions in year 1523. Family Keglevic coat of arms at the main gate of Gorica Castle Their coat of arms can be seen on various documents, next to and above the gate of the Gorica castle. The upper two thirds of the shield contain two golden, crowned lions on the blue background. They hod a silver sword with the golden crown. On the lower third there are three red and two silver horizontal lines. Peter Keglevic II was born between 1476 and 1479. He was a ban of Jajce from 1520 to 1537 and Croatian ban between 1537 and 1542. In 1523, he was the owner of Caklovec castle on Psunj, in the east part of Krizevci County.

He was also the owner of town Podvrsje in Pozega County. He got it from Franz Hedervary, ban of Biograd. In the same year, he buys both Krapina and Kostel and moves his entire family to Kostel. 1540, when his daughter Ana, married to Gaspar Ernust, owner of Medjimurje, Djurdjevac, Prodavica and Koprivnice got widowed, he becomes all the possessions of his son-in-law, claiming that his daughter got pregnant and that he was her tutor. When his whole theory was proven to be false, the emperor Ferdinand abolished his ban honours. On 9 November 1542, he was sentenced as an infidel by the Parliament in Pozun. Nikola Zrinski has become the new Croatian ban. He arrested Keglevic and his sons in year 1546 and they were forced to give back the possessions they took from their late son-in-law. They got their cities

back and were forgiven by the emperor. Peter Keglevic died around year 1554, either in Kostel, or in Krapina. He was buried in Pregrada church. Grave plate probably refering to Peter Keglevic Four out of his nine children have died before him. These were George, John, Caspar and Ana. His son Francis was an abbot in Topusko. He died 1558. Nobody knows where his son Nicola lived and how and when he died. Peter died 1566, during fights against the Turks. The remaining inheritors were Simon and Matthew Keglevic. Matthew died without children around 1584 and his brother's Simon's children have inherited all his possessions, because Simon died in 1579. His grave is also in Pregrada Parish church, right above the his father's grave plate. It was erected by Simon's second wife, Magdalena Petho. Simon had five children with Magdalena: John,

John, Peter, George, Francis and Ana. After Simon's death in 1579, mother has given the largest part of the possession to her daughter Ana. Her brother have filed against it before Kaptol in Zagreb. John got married in 1598 with Suzana Bay. They had two children: Francis and Ana. He died 1619. The second son of Simon, Peter, got killed in Battle of Cernik in the year 1602. Franjo was captured by the Turks and converted to Islam. George, third son of Simon Keglevic was a viceban of Croatia and Croatian army commander. He married Katarina Istvannffy and they had four sons: Nicolas, Peter, Sigismund and Stephen. In his will, he stated that Sigismund and Stephen must go to school while Nicolas and Peter have to take the possessions. Sigismund had only female children while his brother Stephen had no children after his divorce with Mariana Erdoedy. There were two Keglevics remaining: Nicholas and Peter. They have divided the land. The family went in two directions - Nicholas went to Hungary while Peter remained in Croatia. Peter married Margareta Gereczy in 1625. His son Peter died when he was a boy, the other son John

became a monk, while his daughter Katarina went to Zagreb to become a nun. The other daughter, Eva, has also become a nun. His oldest son Ladislav has married Rosina Rattkay in 1656 and he was the only descendant of all family possessions. His daughter became a nun, Maria Teresa has married Count George Seczy and his descendant was Peter Keglevic. Some documents contain the name Thomas Keglevic, which appears to have been the Peter's nickname. Kostel Castel (1939.) By this time, Kostel was already devastated. Keglevics have built castles Gorica, Dubrava and Bezanec. Dubrava belonged to Nicholas descendants, while Gorica and Bezanec went into hands to Peter's descendants. Peter (1660 - 1724) had two sons, Ladislav and Alexander and a daughter Cristina. She married to Joseph Rattkay. Ladislav's line got lost in the second generation because his son Peter (1722 - 1749) had two daughters and the family line gets lost after their weddings. Alexander (1706 - 1750) has married Teodora Petazzi. His daughter Joanna married John Chamarre, while his son Julius had a son with Anna Petezzy. This boy has died young. The other son of Alexander had a son Thomas (1769 - 1850). He had a son Samuel (1812 - 1882) who married to Emilia Collenbach. After his death, his son Oscar sells everything to Antun Kaucic. Oscar has left Pregrada and after his death there are no lines of Keglevics anymore. Baron Franz Ottenfels-Gschwind, Austrian ambassador to Constantinopole has bought Bezanec from the Kaucic family. His descendants lived there until World War II. Dubrava became the ownership of Limburg-Stirum family. Later on, it went into hands of Orsic and then into hands of the Kuhtic family.
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Re: Looking for a place North/East Italy, maybe around...

Postby suanj » 12 Aug 2006, 22:33

and again on Carantha castle:
Since 1622, a new castellan, Benvenuto Petaz (Petazzi, Petac)*, a patrician of Trieste, took residence at Socerb. In the same year Emperor Ferdinand II bestowed upon him the title baron. In 1630, he received the castle in fief, and in 1632, he advanced to the rank of Count of "Castelnuovo e S. Servolo" (Novigrad and Socerb). Castle Novigrad was built close to Podgrad, not far from the main road Trieste - Fiume (Reka). The word "petaz", "petac" in Slovenian (pronounce: petatch), refers to a coin, a fiver. Meaning, the coin represents the value of five ("pet" in Slovenian). Indeed, the arms of the family depict: Gules, seven silver coins (2, 2, 2, 1). http://www.carantha.net/our_castles_part_ii.htm


as you can see this family had many branches but all related...
in Croatia also it was:
17.. - c.1725 Adelmo conte Petazzi captain
[hr]

* Countess Maximiliana Franziska von Attems
Born 8 October 1657 Goerz
Died 6 August 1737 Trieste
Married 2 August 1674 Goerz
Count Benvenuto Petazzi zu Castelnuovo und San Servolo

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