Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

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Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby PeterTimber » 01 Mar 2010, 15:41

LAND REGISTRY RECORDS IN ITALY:

I received information from Mr Anthony Alioto, attorney (Italianlaw@comcast.net) of San Francisco California who furnished excellent land information on Italy Land Records.

Mr Alioto stated, in substance, the following:

That about two years ago his firm was permitted access to al of Italy's land (abandoned) records so that from his office in San Francisco it is now possible for him to find just about anyone on land title today even though that persons listed is deceased.

If the property was sold off and gifted then, of course, the party(ies) in question are no longer on title inthe CADASTRAL DATA BASE. Another available database gives access to historical ownership.

The point is that there are thousands of abandonded property that should pass to successive generations wherever they reside in the world.

The Comuni would love to update the title to abandoned land recorded but is unable to trace the children of the deceased landowner in the world =Peter=


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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby PeterTimber » 01 Mar 2010, 15:57

This is a postscript to the above Land Registry Records:

Mr Alioto advised that his land Registry law firm does not address question having to do with strictly genealogy research but will perform research if one suspects there is property available to them and knows the exact town of birth of the probable landowner since without a town (Comune) the LAND SERVER will not respond.

However Mr Alioto explained that if someone send 2 to 3 names for genealogy research that poses no problems for his firm, however, family trees are not acceptable.

Lastly he pointed out that if the suspected deceased landowner was born prior to 1870 the data base will not be able to locate that person. His website is www.italianlaw.net

=Peter=
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Mar 2010, 19:15

Interesting stuff.

I can't help but wonder - let's say that my great-grandfather left behind property in Italy which is now worth, oh, I don't know, a few million euros. (Hey, I can dream!)

So, who would that property go to - the first one who shows up to claim it? Or, would the title have to be transferred to all known descendants?

The first hardly seems fair; the latter hardly seems realistic...
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby JamesBianco » 01 Mar 2010, 20:03

I once heard from my Uncle (who was born in Italy and came here as a teenager) that abandoned land after a time will be confiscated if unclaimed. Now whether that is by the next of kin or the government I am not sure, most likely by anyone who started paying taxes on the land. I know that my uncle's father was nearly beaten to death on one occasion by several towns people for returning just short of the deadline.

This was for San Michele, Catanzaro (Calabria).
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby DeFilippis78 » 01 Mar 2010, 21:01

johnnyonthespot wrote:Interesting stuff.

I can't help but wonder - let's say that my great-grandfather left behind property in Italy which is now worth, oh, I don't know, a few million euros. (Hey, I can dream!)

So, who would that property go to - the first one who shows up to claim it? Or, would the title have to be transferred to all known descendants?

The first hardly seems fair; the latter hardly seems realistic...


Very interesting indeed! Anyone know how much the fee is for searching? Does someone who is American (no dual citizenship) have the right to own that land? And if you dont live there, what happens to it? People can use it or you get taxed on it?
I have the same questions has Carmine. There is MANY people in between the relative Im thinking of and me. How can they all be dismised. Is this like "finders keepers!" ?

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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby DeFilippis78 » 02 Mar 2010, 01:10

I wanted everyone to know I spoke on the phone with Mr Alioto today. He was very pleasant to talk to and very informative. I learned a lot from him, about the forgotten part of our ancestry...and that is the potential that our relatives left land behind that we might be entitled too.

All of us have family that came here and we dont think much that there is a chance they left land behind. Mr Alioto said there is so much land that families haven't claimed. If you know the name and EXACT place of birth he can look up if there is any unclaimed land in your family in Italy. I personally, as I come across the extra money, am going to do a search on the family members I have enough info on. Hey, you never know what might come up. And its not costly just to do the search.

He also helps with dual citizenship if anyone should need his help. One thing he specified over and over is he doesnt do genealogy, family trees, manifests, etc. His main purpose is helping people find out if they might rightfully own land in Italy and secondly, dual citizenship.

He spent more time talking to me than he should have for free. I was at the point that I should have been charged but he was very polite and gracious and answered all my questions. Sounds like a great guy and a service we really need!

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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby PeterTimber » 02 Mar 2010, 13:29

Dear Alicia thank you for your confirmation that Mr Anthony Alioto is what I have always found him to be- kind,responsive, generous and willing to give of himself. While I have no "land in Italy" experience with him I would not hesitate to employ his talents. =Peter=
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby Italysearcher » 02 Mar 2010, 13:52

Italy has 'squatters rights' laws like other countries. If your ancestors abandoned the land and others started using it then claimed it. It would cost more than it is worth to claim it back.
In my husband's family they owned a small property that they allowed a poor family to live in the house and pay no rent. When they went to claim it back they were told it would cost more than it was worth.
Property here is divided equally among the heirs even when a will would leave everything to one member of the family. Given the number of children common to Italian families a century ago the 'portion' remaining as an inheritance is likely to be very small.
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby DeFilippis78 » 02 Mar 2010, 14:11

Luckily with Mr Alioto's service he out right tells you if its worth it or not. If the property isnt something big and wouldnt be worth the time or money to claim,he will tell you. He genuinely seems like he wants to help if its a good amount of property and if its very small he will tell you to just walk away. I liked the honesty.

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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby johnnyonthespot » 02 Mar 2010, 14:23

Italysearcher wrote:Italy has 'squatters rights' laws like other countries. If your ancestors abandoned the land and others started using it then claimed it. It would cost more than it is worth to claim it back.
In my husband's family they owned a small property that they allowed a poor family to live in the house and pay no rent. When they went to claim it back they were told it would cost more than it was worth.
Property here is divided equally among the heirs even when a will would leave everything to one member of the family. Given the number of children common to Italian families a century ago the 'portion' remaining as an inheritance is likely to be very small.


In my wildest imaginings, my family left behind property in Roccasecca FR which is now worth billions of euros and that is why the stato civile/anagrafe ignore all of my document requests - they are hoping I will go away and never find out that I potentailly own half the property in the comune! :D
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby DeFilippis78 » 02 Mar 2010, 14:32

Ya know he told me a funny story about getting documents. We were talking about dual citizenship and I told him that Ive had more people not respond, than respond for record requests. So he went into this story that he had a client for dual citizenship and he needed the BC. He himself,Mr Alioto requested it several times and no one listened. He called up and was yelling at the receptionist. She said she didnt want to get the BC because it was in the basement in archives and they had terrible rats and she was afraid. Well after he yelled at her and I think called the mayor he got the document. Maybe they have rats, LOL!!


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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby Italysearcher » 03 Mar 2010, 12:43

If you saw some of the places they keep old records you wouldn't be laughing!
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby DeFilippis78 » 03 Mar 2010, 22:54

I believe it. And its scares me a little to know that when I request records I could be turned down for that reason. That's when I wish I had family there to walk right in and request in it person.

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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby italianlaw » 04 Mar 2010, 08:37

JamesBianco wrote:I once heard from my Uncle (who was born in Italy and came here as a teenager) that abandoned land after a time will be confiscated if unclaimed. Now whether that is by the next of kin or the government I am not sure, most likely by anyone who started paying taxes on the land. I know that my uncle's father was nearly beaten to death on one occasion by several towns people for returning just short of the deadline.
This was for San Michele, Catanzaro (Calabria).

Hello Mr. Carini
You statement about confiscation of family property is based what your uncle's understanding and has no foundation. I see abandoned property reports daily. On title are those who passed on many decades earlier. Their descendents still have a right to recover the title. The story of unpaid taxes will result in the confiscation of the land is unfounded as well. Reality check: one generally loses title to property by adverse possession (squatters) and eminent domain. In neither case is the lost of property stricly related to time.
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Re: Italy Land Registry Records www.italianlaw.net

Postby italianlaw » 04 Mar 2010, 08:56

Rebuttal to Mr. Carini's statement
Your statement about confiscation of family property is based what your uncle's understanding which is simplistic and without foundation. I see abandoned property reports daily. On title are those who passed on many decades earlier. Their descendents still have a right to recover the title. Also, the story that unpaid taxes will result in the confiscation of the property is generally unfounded as well. Reality check: one generally loses title to property due to an action of adverse possession (squatters) filed in the courts or notice of eminent domain. In neither case is the lost of property stricly related to time.

The Italy procedural code dictates modality: mandatory notice to title holders on court hearings; large public works which may cause property to be claimed by the Comune or the Province. The base problem is that the Comuni are not able to notify (process service) the descendents of deceased title holers. They simply do not know where to find the living family members. This is reason for checking the status of the title to ancestors property. Most of the time there is no court action pending and thus the property may be claimed by filing succession documents.
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