Baptismal Record in lieu of Birth Certificate

[molisani]

I have gathered all of the necessary documentation except for one to apply for Italian citizenship.

I qualify for citizenship as a descendant born abroad: My grandfather emigrated to the USA as a baby and never renounced Italian citizenship or announced American citizenship before my father was born. Same for my father and me (we never renounced or announced).

I have tried for several years now, beginning around 1998, to obtain my grandfather's birth certificate from Italy. I have *his* father's, but not his. Instead, I have his Baptismal Recrod from a famous Church in Rome. Rome and Campobasso both have no official record of his birth - but it may have been destroyed in World War II.

Can the baptismal record suffice? It is the original in Italian, and I believe my grandfather used it for most of his life as his birth certificate...

Regards,
Mark de Socio

[ptimber]

why not send it in with an expalantion with your application and see what the Italian citizenship authorities tell you?? You do nto have abirth record anyway so they will tell you what is required if yoiu do not have one to present to them. If you wish to refer to an expert go to www.italiamerica.org/id72.htm
Peter

[molisani]

Thanks Peter for the link.

I would like to try that, but I'm afraid to part with the documents...

Mark

[ptimber]

send a copy and ask them if thats ok. Peter

[lemarche]

I have gathered all of the necessary documentation except for one to apply for Italian citizenship.

I qualify for citizenship as a descendant born abroad: My grandfather emigrated to the USA as a baby and never renounced Italian citizenship or announced American citizenship before my father was born. Same for my father and me (we never renounced or announced).

I have tried for several years now, beginning around 1998, to obtain my grandfather's birth certificate from Italy. I have *his* father's, but not his. Instead, I have his Baptismal Recrod from a famous Church in Rome. Rome and Campobasso both have no official record of his birth - but it may have been destroyed in World War II.

Can the baptismal record suffice? It is the original in Italian, and I believe my grandfather used it for most of his life as his birth certificate...

Regards,
Mark de Socio

battisimi records will not suffice ! make sure you know to which commune your relatives were born rather than the nearest large city where they actually lived, then you may have better luck. smaller towns have communes which have documents of people from the hamlets in the countryside.
churches prior to 1866 have all birth and death records.

[ptimber]

Mr lemarche the inquirer has already explained that he cannot obtain birth records and that he does have church records so what are you saying that the inquirer does not already know??? Peter

[suanj]

I have gathered all of the necessary documentation except for one to apply for Italian citizenship.

I qualify for citizenship as a descendant born abroad: My grandfather emigrated to the USA as a baby and never renounced Italian citizenship or announced American citizenship before my father was born. Same for my father and me (we never renounced or announced).

I have tried for several years now, beginning around 1998, to obtain my grandfather's birth certificate from Italy. I have *his* father's, but not his. Instead, I have his Baptismal Recrod from a famous Church in Rome. Rome and Campobasso both have no official record of his birth - but it may have been destroyed in World War II.

Can the baptismal record suffice? It is the original in Italian, and I believe my grandfather used it for most of his life as his birth certificate...

Regards,
Mark de Socio

If:
-you have official document Common's Italian of birth, in which is declared that italian birth registries have gone destroyed in WWII°, the baptism act is sufficient for italian citizenship, but in your dossier for italian citizenship, you must insert also this Common's official document in which is declared that birth registries were destroyed in WWII°..
-But, you are sure your ancestor been born in Campobasso town and not in an Common of Campobasso province?
suanj

[missb]

Hi there,

I'm new to the forum, but I guess I can give you some info on that. Baptismal certificates will suffice, but if I'm not wrong, you need to get a declaration from the Church as well, to certify that the certificate really came from there and all that stuff.

If you still want it, I can check it exactly with all the details and get back to you.

Cheers,

Bianca

[ptimber]

That may very well be true but you still need a certification that original bith records a=were destroyed by the cusotdian of records in the town which should either be the Mayor of the town or the head of the Ufficio di Stato Civile ijn the town and/or the provincial archive director. Peter

[missb]

Peter, some experts told me that depending on the period, they didn't have birth records, they only had the baptism certificates, so it might even be that case? I don't know exactly what period, but there was a period where they didn't do civil records.

I'd have to check it with the people I got this info from, though

That may very well be true but you still need a certification that original bith records a=were destroyed by the cusotdian of records in the town which should either be the Mayor of the town or the head of the Ufficio di Stato Civile ijn the town and/or the provincial archive director. Peter

[ptimber]

Yes of course. In Italy when it was not a unified nation the souther part was then known as the Kingdomof the Two Sicilies and they commenced keeping civil reocrds in 1809 and have ever since. The northern part of Italy was spotty depending on who owned it and who governed soi some cities and some provinces had recors and others did not but for all of Italy the Council of Trent decreed that all churches must maintain records starting in the 1600 but it took 100 years to get it implemented forcibly so church records usually go back to 1700. Anything before that requires some historical footnote on the family. Peter

[missb]

So what you're saying is that the Churches have civil records as well? Or you mean just the baptismal records?

Yes of course. In Italy when it was not a unified nation the souther part was then known as the Kingdomof the Two Sicilies and they commenced keeping civil reocrds in 1809 and have ever since. The northern part of Italy was spotty depending on who owned it and who governed soi some cities and some provinces had recors and others did not but for all of Italy the Council of Trent decreed that all churches must maintain records starting in the 1600 but it took 100 years to get it implemented forcibly so church records usually go back to 1700. Anything before that requires some historical footnote on the family. Peter

[ptimber]

The only aujthority that kept records of births(baptisms), marriages and deaths wre the churches prior to 1809 for southern Italy and prior to 1872 when Italy was unified although some northern cities and towns kept civil records but not all. Peter

[molisani]

It's been awhile since I've checked-up on this forum for responses. I am heartened to see that there is a lively discussion - thanks everyone for talking about this.

I'm not sure if I knew it at the time of my original post, but it appears that my grandfather's parents were American citizens. In other words, his mother was certainly American - his father met her after emigrating to New York and they married before my grandfather was born.

I do not know why they went to Italy to give birth to my grandfather. I would like to think that the father wanted him to be an Italian citizen; I do not know if birth in Italy automatically makes you an Italian citizen, however. Can someone confirm or nullify that?

My fear is that his birth was never even officially registered in Italy. He was born in an apartment in Rome and his birth was recongized by a major church there (that's where his Baptismal Record came from). I checked with Campobasso to see if it was registered there - Campobasso is my family's ancestral town/city. I believe they are indeed from the city itself; however, the earliest record of a hometown for the father is listed as Baranello, a small village west of Campobasso. It is listed on the Ellis Island record of his first entry into the US. I have never tried to contact Baranello officials for a birth certificate. That will be my next step unless Campobasso is the place for all birth registrations in the Province of Campobasso.

If his birth was never actually registered, how would Italy know if it never existed versus being destroyed in World War II?

I should note that my grandfather was born in 1911 - guess I never stated that before (sorry!).

Thanks again in advance!
Mark de Socio

[suanj]

It's been awhile since I've checked-up on this forum for responses. I am heartened to see that there is a lively discussion - thanks everyone for talking about this.

I'm not sure if I knew it at the time of my original post, but it appears that my grandfather's parents were American citizens. In other words, his mother was certainly American - his father met her after emigrating to New York and they married before my grandfather was born.

I do not know why they went to Italy to give birth to my grandfather. I would like to think that the father wanted him to be an Italian citizen; I do not know if birth in Italy automatically makes you an Italian citizen, however. Can someone confirm or nullify that?

My fear is that his birth was never even officially registered in Italy. He was born in an apartment in Rome and his birth was recongized by a major church there (that's where his Baptismal Record came from). I checked with Campobasso to see if it was registered there - Campobasso is my family's ancestral town/city. I believe they are indeed from the city itself; however, the earliest record of a hometown for the father is listed as Baranello, a small village west of Campobasso. It is listed on the Ellis Island record of his first entry into the US. I have never tried to contact Baranello officials for a birth certificate. That will be my next step unless Campobasso is the place for all birth registrations in the Province of Campobasso.

If his birth was never actually registered, how would Italy know if it never existed versus being destroyed in World War II?

I should note that my grandfather was born in 1911 - guess I never stated that before (sorry!).

Thanks again in advance!
Mark de Socio

If an person born in Italy land, are automatically italian citizen..
also if an person born in an apartment, the relatives declared it in Common birth Office sure..after declaration on Common, the christening sure this case...In Baranello probable not have birth annotation on your ancestor, are in Rome if he are born in Rome.. more: in Rome are an large community molisan people resident.. I think your birth certificate ancestor are in Rome, and you can found it, send an email request to Rome Common.. but if you in the past not found birth certificate in rome, sure are an data not exact, please to controll again...
-but are also an other possibility: your ancestor only christening in Rome, but born in Baranello town..are possible this case??? if yes, you can write to Baranello Common..
Please insert in your reply on my message any details on your ancestor..

regards, suanj