Los Angeles Appointment Recap

[Xaymara]

Appointment date: 19 September 2011 at 10:30 AM.
Made Appointment: June 13, 2011
Wait Time: 3 months

I'm applying GF > F > Me.

Certificates in order in which they were requested:

GF birth, naturalization, marriage and death
F birth, marriage (with license) and death
M birth, marriage (with license)

Other documents and copies requested:

Copy of Certificate of Naturalization
My passport and driver's license for ID purposes and a copy of both for the file
Forms 1, 2 and 4, previously filled but dated and signed with maiden name (which is still my legal name) at the appointment.

I wasn't asked for any docs on the non-Italian line except for my husband's birth certificate of which she wanted a copy and not the apostilled authenticated certificate. She said to save that one for when he applies for citizenship by marriage once I'm recognized.

I was asked for my children's birth certificates. I told Raffaella that they are adults therefore I didn't think they could apply with me, that they had to wait for my recognition first. She said they could apply at the same time since they both live in states under the jurisdiction of the L.A. consulate. She encouraged me to send their docs (birth, marriage and form 3) soon so they can be added to my file.

All my docs, except grandfather's birth certificate from Palermo, are from Georgia and Puerto Rico. Documents on the line of descent originating in states outside of the jurisdiction of the L.A. consulate had to be authenticated by the consulate with jurisdiction over GA and P.R. I hired a wonderful translator in Miami who set-up the appointment with the Miami consulate and took all the docs to be authenticated.

Potential issues:

There were a couple of discrepancies on names on the non-Italian line but they were not an issue since she didn't ask to see these certificates.

There were no discrepancies in names or dates on the Italian line except on my GF Declaration of Intent and Petition where his date of birth was off by two days. I wasn't asked for these documents since I had the original Certificate of Naturalization. However, I had a positivo/negativo letter from Palermo just in case I was asked for the NARA docs to confirm the identity reported on the Cert. of Naturalization.

My parent's marriage certificate was a certification and not a certificate and there were no date of birth or names of parents on the certification. I knew that this might pose a problem. So I ordered their marriage license and that didn't have that information either. Finally I was made aware of a sworn statement my parent's signed before getting married which had all the information I was lacking. I got an official copy of the sworn statement from the Vital Records Office in San Juan and had it apostilled, translated and authenticated. Raffaella let me know that this doc was very valuable since I didn't really have the long form of the marriage certificate.

The meeting lasted 25 minutes and was conducted in Italian. I'm leaving in six days for Italy and needed the language practice! Wait time she said will be one year. I've read that there are people still waiting after 15 months and that Raffaella has a new assistant starting next month. Maybe the process will speed up soon after October.

- Maria

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Maria: Thanks for your update...very informative! It appears you are now in Italy - are you still reading this forum? I have some questions but will wait to see if you are able to respond.

Ciao,
Dennis

[Xaymara]

Dennis, just saw your message. I'll be happy to answer any questions you may have.

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Xaymara: Thanks for responding to my post of yesterday.
I'm glad you surfaced after 3 months, as there doesn't seem to be anybody else here whom has gone to L.A. recently!

I am primarily concerned about how lenient LA might be regarding a few name discrepancies of my documents. I emailed the consulate with specific questions three months ago and got a "read" receipt via email...but NO response...ZERO! This is not encouraging, as I must pay an outrageous $50 per apostille in CT(!) plus $20 for each certified doc issued, plus translation fees, plus "authentication" fees - etc. The process is both expensive and time-consuming, and I'd really like to know beforehand if a certain doc is going to be rejected or not. I feel so helpless when they won't even answer me! Any suggestions?

As I mentioned, I ran into a VERY nasty city clerk whom refused to help me one bit. It took going above her to the CT state dept of vital records to get some relief, but this of course made the clerk now consider me a personal enemy, so any bending of the rules or additional cooperation is unlikely without a court order. The court process is something I'd rather avoid if at all possible.

I'm applying GF-Mom-Me, much the same as you did. My grandparents are deceased, my mom is still alive.

Lots of questions, here we go!

First Issue: "Authentications." Is it required to make an appointment for this process, or can I just send my docs to the appropriate consulate (NYC)? Must the apostilles AND translations already be affixed to the docs before authentications are performed?

Second: What docs need Apostilles and/or Authentications? Excepting the federal naturalization documents, do ALL other US-issued docs need these - including my fathers birth cert, even if he is not on the Italian side of the family? Do my GF's naturalization cert (a copy) and the NARA-provided "petition for naturalization" also need to be translated?

Third: Doc Name Discrepancies. I got the state of CT vital records office to meet me half-way and make some corrections, but some discrepancy remains as follows:

GF real name (birth cert) Luigi Mossa
GM real name (birth cert): Maria Louisa DiBiase
M real name (birth cert): Disolina Mossa

On my grandparents marriage license, my GF unfortunately used the anglecized last name "Morris" for both him and his father! I got CT to add "AKA (also known as) Luigi Mossa" but they wouldn't strike off the "Morris" on either him or his father's name lines, and also wouldn't add the "AKA" for his father's name, citing that they cannot change secondary names on a license! No matter that the correct names are clearly demonstrated on my GF's certified Italian birth cert! My grandmother also used an Anglecized name and they agreed to add an "AKA" for her real name too. I wonder if having both the correct Italian and the Americanized names on a cert will cause problems?

My mother was born as "Disolina Mossa," but she used the name "Daisy" as her first name since childhood, and "Daisy " shows up on my parents marriage cert, and on my birth cert as well.

Furthermore, my grandmother Maria Luisa DiBiase often times dropped the Maria from her name and was listed as simply "Luisa DiBiase" on my moms birth cert and my parents marriage license.

I had my mother issue an affidavit that states all the correct family birth names and also all of the "AKAs" that are found on these documents. She is certifying that these people are all one and the same. But...will a consulate even accept such a legal US document?

What a mess! From cross-checking all these doc, It can be easily deduced without doubt that these names are all for one and the same persons, but strictly speaking, there are discrepancies. The CT Dept. of Vital records helped me by providing the "AKAs" for my grandparents names, but fell way short of making all the changes I requested. I had intended to make every document 100% perfectly match, but it looks like this will take a court order - or an act of God, or both. This is very discouraging, as I'm already 57 years old and dont have a lot of time to waste here. Sometimes I feel like quitting this process, as I'll be too old to take advantage of the citizenship when all is finally done. IF it ever gets done, that is...!

Again, I wonder if anybody else has had similar problems and what the final outcome was?

Thanks, all...
Dennis
San DIego, CA

[Xaymara]

Dennis, I'll try to answer all your questions based on my experience with LA but please check the links that I'll be posting for additional info.

I am primarily concerned about how lenient LA might be regarding a few name discrepancies of my documents. I emailed the consulate with specific questions three months ago and got a "read" receipt via email...but NO response...ZERO! This is not encouraging, as I must pay an outrageous $50 per apostille in CT(!) plus $20 for each certified doc issued, plus translation fees, plus "authentication" fees - etc. The process is both expensive and time-consuming, and I'd really like to know beforehand if a certain doc is going to be rejected or not. I feel so helpless when they won't even answer me! Any suggestions?

I know exactly how you feel since I too emailed them twice and never got a response. I can't anticipate what name discrepancies the consulate will accept since I didn't have any problems with names but I did have a problem with a non-long form marriage certificate and needed clarification on how to proceed with non-USA issued docs. I needed their advice on those two issues prior to having everything apostilled and translated. So I drove (7hrs) to Santa Monica last Memorial Day and went to the consulate first thing Tuesday morning. After a half hour wait I was called and talked to Monica. She gave me clear instructions on both issues and mentioned that the docs needed to be authenticated by the Miami consulate. This was the first time I heard about this requirement since it's not specified on the consulate's website.

You may want to read about other people's experiences with the LA consulate on the links below in regards to name discrepancies.

What anglicizations were (not) accepted?
http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t1395.html

What middle name discrepancies were (not) accepted?
http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t1399.html

What last name discrepancies were (not) accepted?
http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t1394.html

First Issue: "Authentications." Is it required to make an appointment for this process, or can I just send my docs to the appropriate consulate (NYC)? Must the apostilles AND translations already be affixed to the docs before authentications are performed?

I had an appointment with the Miami consulate to authenticate my docs because I was doing this process in person. I believe that if you are mailing them you don't need an appointment. For the exact procedure to follow and a form letter to send to the consulate, see the 4th post in this thread:

http://italiancitizenship.freeforums.or ... t2566.html

Authentication is the last step before presenting your docs for JS recognition, so you must send them apostilled and translated. Don't staple the translations to the apostilled doc, just keep the translation attached with a paper clip. The consulate has a very particular way of stamping and stapling the authenticated docs together.

Second: What docs need Apostilles and/or Authentications? Excepting the federal naturalization documents, do ALL other US-issued docs need these - including my fathers birth cert, even if he is not on the Italian side of the family? Do my GF's naturalization cert (a copy) and the NARA-provided "petition for naturalization" also need to be translated?

All documents on the Italian side need to be long-form, apostilled, translated and authenticated. Raffaella did not ask to see any of my non-Italian line docs but I had them apostilled but not translated. There's no need to apostille, translate or authenticate non-Italian direct line docs. Naturalization papers or Nat. certificates do not need to be translated.

From the LA consulate website:

CERTIFICATES IN LANGUAGES OTHER THAN ITALIAN : must be translated into Italian_______
Documents that do not need to be translated and do not need an "Apostille" are the U.S. Certificate of Naturalization or any statement releasing information on the naturalization status of the interested party and certificates related to the "not Italian side" of your family tree. Please note "Apostille" does not need to be translated.

Please note that the authentication is needed only on docs originating from states outside the consular jurisdiction. Also, if you are married, you must also submit your marriage certificate and license, apostilled along with a copy of your spouse's birth certificate.

Third: Doc Name Discrepancies. I got the state of CT vital records office to meet me half-way and make some corrections, but some discrepancy remains as follows:

GF real name (birth cert) Luigi Mossa
GM real name (birth cert): Maria Louisa DiBiase
M real name (birth cert): Disolina Mossa [...]

I'm truly sorry that I can't offer any advice on the discrepancies but please check the links I posted for other people's experiences.

I hope you found the answer to most of your questions. If not, please post again. The jure sanguinis process is indeed frustrating and costly but please don't be discouraged. Best of luck!

- Maria

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Maria:

Thanks so much for your response and the excellent links. I was previously unaware of the other web forum concerning JS applicants.

I do have some good news, finally. I called the LA consulate today and explained my problem, and how my email was never answered. "No problem, I'll connect you to the citizenship department," he said. I then expected to hear a recording but instead - a live person answered! When I asked, it was not Rafaella, but she then didn't volunteer her name.

We chatted for about 7 or 8 minutes about my problem and the answer was essentially this:

1) The consulate is aware of, and understands that some states will not fully cooperate in the request for document ammendments. They also realize that making changes to a doc after a person has deceased is not allowed in many circumstances.

2) They will look to see that I have made a sincere effort to get my docs to perfectly match. If I was only parttially successful, they will still recognize the effort.

3) If the docs don't match 100%, the consulate will "cross-reference" docs to see if they can conclude that the individual in question is actually one and the same person across all names. Preventing fraud is all they are attempting to do - and not make it impossible for a person to obtain JS if American vital records departments will not comply.

4) Having a signed, sworn, notarized affidavit by a living person (my mother in this case) will also be considered in clearing up any name discrpancies.

5) She told me not to worry too much - that I've already done all that I can! Just make the appointment, bring the docs in and they will make determinations in person. If any are unacceptable, they will work with me to find a way.

This was a very helpful and positive conversation. I now feel a bit better about moving forward with this.

Regards,
Dennis

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Maria:

One final question. In your original post, you stated:

I'm applying GF > F > Me.

Certificates in order in which they were requested:

GF birth, naturalization, marriage and death
F birth, marriage (with license) and death
M birth, marriage (with license)

I believe that the listing of certificates has a typo...that the "M" is meant to mean "Me" correct? Or, did you have to provide your mothers (M) birth cert as well, even though she is not on the Italian side?

Just as a last confirmation, I'm planning to translate/apostille/authenticate ALL documents that are in the DIRECT lineage from GF-Mom-Me. This would logically exclude my father's birth cert as he is not on the Italian side. However, on the LA consulate website they state "If Category #4 Applies to You" that my father's birth cert is required.

Did the consulate specify that your mother's birth cert was not necessary (the mirror equivalent to my father's)? If I do need to provide this cert, must it also be translated/apostilled and authenticated like the direct line docs?

Thanks again,
Dennis

[Xaymara]

The "M" should be "Me".

I applied for recognition under Category 3 and per the consulate's requirements, I had to have birth certificates of my grandmother and mother (non-Italian line). At the appointment Raffaella didn't ask to see any of my non-Italian line documents. She didn't specifically say that she didn't want them, she simply didn't ask for them and I didn't offer them when she was going down the line. I just gave her what she asked for. I had more documents than what the consulate required because my rationale was that it is better to have a doc and not need it than to be asked for it and not have it. I had to travel to Puerto Rico to get all my docs and apostilles so I made sure to get every doc that was available to me. (Fees for docs in P. Rico are low - $5.00 each certificate + $3.00 for apostilles).

Apostille, translate and authenticate every doc on the Italian side. Per the consulate's website, you need your grandmother's and your father's birth certificate but you do not need to apostille, translate or authenticate them. Raffaella may not ask for them but it is on the list of required docs.

Remember that authentication is only needed for docs coming from states outside the jurisdiction of the LA Consulate.

Also, if you are married, don't forget to have a certified copy of the marriage license, with apostille and a copy of your spouse's birth certificate. I was asked for my marriage license and my husband's birth certificate.

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Thanks, Maria. It is 100% clear now!

Wow, $5 and $3 for documents/apostilles in Puerto Rico? That is what it ought to be, in my humble opinion. The greedy, mismanaged state of CT asks $20 for each document and $40 for each apostille! That is insane when compared to other states. This is why I need to be exacting in what I do or don't do...it becomes VERY costly at CT rates.

If I still lived in CT, I'd be planning to move out - which is exactly what I did in 1988. And perhaps now it's time to move on to Italy. That is the goal!

Thanks again, Maria! I'm now off on phase #2...getting translations and apostilles!

Dennis
San Diego, CA

[ericataylor22]

Question!! I have to get my BC authenticated by the Chicago consulate which covered Colorado (where I was born) for the Philly consulate which covers the region I now live in.

What did you have to do, papers filled out, etc to get your documents authenticated by the Miami consulate? I am on a time crunch (I move to Italy at end of this July) and have no earthly idea how to do this. Any help would be hugely appreciated.

[dgeorge]

As I mentioned, I ran into a VERY nasty city clerk whom refused to help me one bit. It took going above her to the CT state dept of vital records to get some relief, but this of course made the clerk now consider me a personal enemy, so any bending of the rules or additional cooperation is unlikely without a court order. The court process is something I'd rather avoid if at all possible. .....
Doc Name Discrepancies. I got the state of CT vital records office to meet me half-way and make some corrections....On my grandparents marriage license, my GF unfortunately used the anglecized last name "Morris" for both him and his father! I got CT to add "AKA (also known as) Luigi Mossa" but they wouldn't strike off the "Morris" on either him or his father's name lines, and also wouldn't add the "AKA" for his father's name, citing that they cannot change secondary names on a license! No matter that the correct names are clearly demonstrated on my GF's certified Italian birth cert! My grandmother also used an Anglecized name and they agreed to add an "AKA" for her real name too. I wonder if having both the correct Italian and the Americanized names on a cert will cause problems?

AlfaRomeo4ever, I also had to deal with the Registrar at Bristol and I do not have a single kind word to say about the ordeal. Was it only the marriage certificate that you had changed? Can you please share a name of someone Private message me)at the CT Vital Records office? It is my understanding that the AKA is perfectly acceptable (and that is from the notorious NY consulate!). The AKA is precisely what I am trying to add to my GF birth certificate to explain all subsequent uses. Having the AKA may be enough to "explain" any other discrepencies, what other discrepencies remain?

[Xaymara]

Wait time she said will be one year. I've read that there are people still waiting after 15 months and that Raffaella has a new assistant starting next month. Maybe the process will speed up soon after October.

Just wanted to report that processing time has been cut significantly at the LA consulate. My appointment was on September 19, 2011 and 5 months, 24 days later I have in my hands my recognition letter.