Original Naturalization Certificate Not Good Enough for NYC

[rjnigro]

the Italian honor system

Have you ever been a part of an airport check in line with a group of Italians ... Not very honorable ....

[reboot365]

Whoa. Yes, I knew there was a one day difference. But I wasn't trying to hide it. He asked just for the certificate. From what I had read I was under the impression that I only needed the original document. I was prepared to hand him the Oath and petition, but when he didn't ask for it after I showed him the certificate, I thought "oh, I guess he doesn't need it." Just like I had the death certificates ready for non direct line relatives. He didn't ask for them, so I only gave him the documents he asked for. Besides, when we got to my GM BC which had a name issue, he immediately stopped the process and went over what was wrong and what I needed to do to fix it. He didn't tell me that when he looked at the naturalization certificate, so that's why I was surprised when at the very end of the appointment he asked for them.

I wasn't trying to fool anyone. He specifically asked for the certificate, and I gave him exactly that. If he asked for the petition and oath, or had said "oh, do you also have those documents?" I would have given it to him right then. I just gave him literally what was asked, that's all.

I'd also like to point out that I knew already that there was a good chance that my application was going to be rejected because of the name issue on my GM BC that I couldn't correct on time. I still went to the appointment to see what else might be an issue so that when I do fix my GM BC, that my application will definitely go through. I would gain nothing by holding back, since I went there to see what else might need fixing. I just was following what the consular official said literally. As frustrating as this naturalization issue is, I just wanted others to be aware of it, that's all.

[jennabet]

Thanks for explaining. I wish you the best in Paris. It's a nice place.

[mler]

You presented your documents in the sequence requested, exactly what you should have done, and really there was no need to explain. I think we all (at least most of us) understood exactly what happened. Fortunately, although it involves a bit more paperwork, it is easy to provide the documentation requested by the consulate. Best of luck.

[lisahickey]

I had the same experience today (birth date off by one day on petition of naturalization) and would love any advice about how to get the court letter - it seems complicated because the court is going to be asked to certify the accuracy of a birth certificate which was issued in Italy (outside of their jurisdiction). Anyone done this successfully? I have to do it in Waterbury, CT, if anyone has experience there.

[Italia1963]

I've have read quite a few posts where successful applicants have advised DO NOT VOLUNTEER INFORMATION...not because you are hiding anything, but somehow, someway, the Consular official will take the information you provide and somehow twist it around. The Consular official is not your friend. They are not there to be understanding or sympathetic even if every other document proves without a doubt that you are entitled to your citizenship. It is possible, as I have read many times, where the official will ask if you have a document and the applicant truthfully responds no, thinking they will now have to find the document to send later on, that the official comes back and says forget about it - it is not necessary. So I agree with previous applicants, don't lie, but only give them what they ask for.

[jennabet]

I disagree. If you have a clean case, you should be able to hand everything over and not be concerned that they will question anything. If you have discrepancies, well, that's another matter. There is such a thing as a clean case. Mine was like that and so was the other case I worked on. In both instances, working with Philadelphia and San Francisco, we were told, "everything appears to be in order". They did not have even ONE question. But then again, if you have something to hide, give them only what they ask for. It will all come out anyway.

[droe]

Earlier a response ended with your problem by say so sorry.

Well no one offered: Welcome to New York - you adventure is now beginning.

At my first appointment I was told I needed to acquire several other documents relating to my GGM even though she was not the line I was going through. I followed the request to the letter.

At my second appontment I turned over documents requested by the consular officer as he requested them. Part way into the appointment I realized several of the documents added to my list at the 1st appontment where still in my folder and skipped.

I asked the officer if he wanted A, B, C documents and was looked at very sternly and told "NO, I will tell you what I want." So we proceeded. At one point I just laid the file folder down open on the desk and he noticed a small stack of items. He asked what is all that. I told him they were the documents I was told I needed from my first appointment.

Well he shook his head and said no, I don't want them whatever they are.

I smiled and said no problem and we finished up the meeting. The whole time I sat there thinking well there was a good waste of money......

Now I will say that the officer was very polite, stern and focused on what he was doing. When it was time to leave I had a short list of a couple of documents I needed certified by Detroit and Philly and that was it. On the way out he walked with me and told me once everything is turned in before the end of 90 days all I have to do is sit and wait.

So not just adding items not requested is the right way to go in my book.

[mler]

Totally agree. Give them what they ask for when they ask for it. When I applied, I had all the documents arranged in the order I thought I would need them, but it was not the sequence preferred by the interviewer. They control the process, so you need to follow their lead.

Jennabet, when you applied about a decade ago and when I applied about five years ago, the process was considerably easier than it is today. Minor discrepancies were often overlooked if the body of evidence showed an unbroken line of citizenship. In addition, when I applied, documents from the non Italian line were not required, which made the process considerably easier. Today, not only do many consulates require such documents, they also check them for discrepancies. I believe you stated that your friend who recently applied had a "clean" application, but his was the exception to the norm.

Most applicants have some sort of minor discrepancy: an Anglicized name, an addition of a middle name acquired at confirmation, a date discrepancy between the actual birth date and the registration date, etc. Often these problems do not contradict the overwhelming evidence that supports an unbroken Italian line. That they now present problems is indicative of a change in attitude at many consulates, perhaps the result of the increasing number of applicants.

Based on recent posts, it appears that at some consulates, the interview is somewhat adversarial in nature, and if that is the case, it seems prudent to give them only what they ask for and to avoid pointing out any potential problems.

[Holies]

What does anglicized mean?

So, I just had my citizenship appointment in NYC. I got rejected for two reasons. One was that my GGF's name was anglicized on my GM's BC - I expected that one, and am working on getting a court order. But what I didn't expect was this...

I was asked for the naturalization document. So I handed him the original, he looked at it, asked if I had a photocopy of it (I did), and handed him that. He stamped the copy and handed me back the original, and I thought that was the end of it.

Then, at the end of the appointment, he said that I needed certified copies of the petition and oath because the date of birth is not on the certificate. I told him I had them, he asked why I hadn't handed them over before, and I said because you didn't ask for it. And sure enough, there is a 1, that's right, a 1 day difference in date of birth. So now I need a court order stating that the person the on naturalization document is the same as the person the Italian BC, and further I need to reach out the commune and have them give me a confirmation that no one was born with his name in that town on the off-by-one-date day.

So, in conclusion, if you have the original, you still need the petition and oath. And if the petition and oath date of birth are off from the Italian BC, you need a court order confirming identity and a statement from the commune saying no one was born in that town on that wrong date with that exact name.

I wish I was making this up.

[castle34]

I am a bit concerned about your problem with a Naturalization Paper. The Naturalization Papers I have for my father in law do have the petition and oath. However, his date of marriage is listed as July 4, 1930. The actual date is July 5. I have the marriage certificate to prove it. Do you think this will be a major problem?