How to prove ascendants DIDN'T renounce?

[italiangen1]

Man, they really don't make this easy...

So I'm a US citizen living outside the US, and I'm getting citizenship through my great grandfather. End of a long road, I need to prove my mother and grandmother never renounced, with two documents stating that, except they won't tell me what they are and how to get them, because they don't know... it's this back and forth that seems endless.

Finally I found this:
http://myitaliancitizenship.com/downloads/AppforCit.PDF

So the consulate where I live, having no other suggestions or options as to how to proceed, typed up a formal letter to Italy, basically asking them for confirmation that should I fill out two part 3s of that PDF, notarized, that citizenship would be granted. Here's what I got back:

"Our Ministry has just answered, informing us that the self-statements we have proposed are suitable only for foreignen prospective citizens residing in Italy whose ancestors are born in Italy as well after the civil registrars have been enforced in our country.
Any other situation, like the ones you need to state (occurred or, in this case, never occurred) to your ancestors, must be stated at the consulates which have the jurisdiction, i.e. where your mother and grand-mother reside.
The same answer is also informing that no difficulty appears to be from the United States Authorities regarding the availability of such statements.
I can translate for you the message of our Ministry on the occasion of your next visit, if this could clarify better what is still requested for the completion of your Italian citizenship application.
My best regards,
"

Gah!

Help, please???

[italiangen1]

I reside abroad in a place that has only processed a couple (literally two if that) citizenship apps. The advantage is the wait time is zero... of course I started going months ago, but there's no "appointment" to book - I'm the only one.

If by this last statement they mean my grandmother and mother have to apply and "get to the back of the line," as in my 90 year old grandmother and working mother have to make appointments that take years, I may just go insane.

I assume you can get something notarized at the consulate; I Googled it and found this (Newark, not New York, but I assume if Newark has it they all do):
http://www.consnewark.esteri.it/Consolato_Newark

It lists Notary Services:

Appointments are necessary for Citizenship, Notary Services, Civil Status and Passport applications.
It is possible only to schedule one request for appointment.
To schedule an appointment click here.
Notary, Civil Status and Passport services are reserved for Italian citizens only.

So to get something required for Italian citizenship one needs to be an Italian citizen...yyyyyeeeaaaa. What to do, please?

I feel like an employee of the Italian Consulate, too bad I don't get paid.

[mler]

The advantage of applying outside the US is the reduced wait time; the disadvantage is that your consulate likely has so few applications that they are less familiar with the process and less structured.

The documents you have downloaded are accepted at US consulates. They simply require that living ascendants formally state that they never renounced citizenship. Since your consulate does not have its own form, you may want to ask your ascendants to draft a letter with similar information and have it notarized. It may also be a good idea to copy the instructions from a US consulate website so that your consulate can see that these statements are accepted at both consulates and comuni for citizenship recognition.

[italiangen1]

The documents you have downloaded are accepted at US consulates. They simply require that living ascendants formally state that they never renounced citizenship. Since your consulate does not have its own form, you may want to ask your ascendants to draft a letter with similar information and have it notarized. It may also be a good idea to copy the instructions from a US consulate website so that your consulate can see that these statements are accepted at both consulates and comuni for citizenship recognition.

Hey mler, thanks that's very helpful. So what is the meaning of this last message from Italy that was relayed to me by the consulate where I live?

Most importantly, can you please help me find the instructions from a US consulate website, and paste the link?

Thank you!

[italiangen1]

After calling all week I finally got through and got the run around again. He said they need proof from "America" that I nor any ascendants never renounced citizenship, and he's already explained that, and heard back from Italy, and he's very busy. I said America is a sizable country with various government entities, and paused to reflect on the absurdity of the necessity of such a statement.

Apparently I need some kind of official-looking documentation proving X is the standard procedure for declaring one never renounced citizenship, which to me is completely ludicrous, like being asked to prove my height by someone standing there holding a large ruler in a box. I overwhelmed him with words and he said he would send another "official" communication, for which I don't hold high hopes.

Can anyone please tell me what the actual procedure is, and how to prove that this is the procedure beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[mler]

These are the applicable instructions from the site of the Newark Consulate. You will be able to find pretty much the same instructions from any other US consular website. Take particular note of Number 9. Maybe you can bookmark several of these pages and show it to them.


Category n. 4
IF N. 4 APPLIES TO YOU, YOU MUST OBTAIN THE FOLLOWING:
For instructions on obtaining proper documents, see information under Category n. 1

1) YOUR MATERNAL GRANDFATHER’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE (from Italy)
2) YOUR MATERNAL GRANDMOTHER’S BIRTH CERTIFICATE
3) YOUR MATERNAL GRANDPARENTS’ MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE
4) YOUR MATERNAL GRANDFATHER’S CERTIFICATE OF NATURALIZATION
5) YOUR MOTHER’ S BIRTH CERTIFICATE
6) YOUR FATHER’ S BIRTH CERTIFICATE
7) YOUR PARENTS’ MARRIAGE CERTIFICATE
8.YOUR BIRTH CERTIFICATE
9) YOUR APPLICATION AND YOUR DECLARATION THAT YOU AND YOUR ASCENDANTS NEVER RENOUNCED ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP BEFORE ANY ITALIAN AUTHORITY.
11) DEATH CERTIFICATE/S RELATING TO THE ITALIAN ASCENDANTS.

IF YOUR GRANDFATHER BECAME A NATURALIZED U.S. CITIZEN BEFORE YOUR MOTHER’S BIRTH, YOU ARE NOT ENTITLED TO ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP (unless you fit into another category).

[italiangen1]

Appreciate it, that's pretty much what the consulate says though. My "application" is what, and what constitutes a declaration, specifically? It seems they want something from the US govt that says they have no record of renunciation... does this even exist? What specific documents fulfill the #9 requirement?

[mler]

Another possibility, but one that involves a bit more work on your part, is to ask your comune (in writing) if they have any record of a renunciation of citizenship by your mother and/or your grandmother. An official renunciation of citizenship would have been made at the consulate and reported to the comune.

The US government would have no record/knowledge of Italian citizenship renunciation.

Edited to add: the documents you downloaded meet the #9 requirement. You can show them the download online since they come from the consulate. I downloaded mine from the NY site. (Note that they were not created by the people at the citizenship website)