Surname Ciarla/Ciarlo to Charles

[Essgee]

Dave.....

Saw the info posted....what great sources these are! Haven't had time to do more at the moment. My computer crashed and burned big time. Trying to retrieve the hard drive and all my genealogy....years worth of messages, etc.

Got a new more powerful computer only to find that Vista is not really as much fun as the old Windows 98 I had! And the jump from 8MB Memory to over 1 GB might make those manipulations I was doing a whole bunch easier. But then, of course, the fax/scanner/printer I had was not compatible with Vista and the fact that it was 5 years or so old meant they would not be creating a driver for it so had to buy a new one.......

Anyway, been otherwise up to my neck in stuff and working a bit as well. I will attempt to catch up this weekend and see what I can add to all of this. I didn't want you to think I was ignoring this....just been "off-line" for a bit myself.

Have a great day.....

[daveferro]

Essgee,
Sorry to hear about the crash. With drives so big, it's hard to backup. I have two 1GB flash drive full of the images and also to CD/DVD just in case. Then posting will preserve them too. Of course there's the ton of cousins I sent them to.

The laptop my cousin gave had Win 95 and I liked it. Then a bug messed it up. Tried installing Win 98 SE but the screen is messed up. Finally he loaned me this one with Win 2000. It's so depressing when new stuff comes out and you have to buy new equipment to match.

Glad you liked the docs and pics. There are more that I have to upload to ImageShack and the website (those Google ads are ridiculous...might have to move to another host site).

Are there any that you would like to see, as I can upload those first.

Barbara is working on her family tree on Ancestry; I get messages of new entries. Unfortunately, we didn't get to meet her when she was up here for the State Fair. I wanted her to meet my mother and her cousin, as they knew her grandfather.

Thanks for the help; we know you are all busy and doing this when you can.

Take it easy,

Dave

[Essgee]

OK..

Got to the library for about 3 hours. Went through the films again. NO other children so far for this couple. Antonia Maria Ciarla--probably about 5 born within a 10 year period of this form of the name or Mariantonia. Not one belongs to this couple.

Barbara...any idea of the date of birth of this women? I can double check again and see if I can find the correct parents.

I went and looked for any Nervino listed in the birth records from 1873 to 1900...nothing. Still waiting on those two films I ordered on June 1st, if you can believe to see if I can find anything. I also checked the marriage records I had an index for to 1900....no Nervino.

I am sure they come from another comune...so I didn't find Francesco either.

Let me think of what else to do and I will get back. I probably will return to the library again this week and I will see if there is any other info coming forth.

Have a great day, both of you.....

[daveferro]

Esgee,

I uploaded a picture of Maria Antonia Ciarla Nervino's gravestone to FindAGrave. It says birth year was 1866 insribed "Antonia C. Nervina. There are many variations on the names: Nervino, Nervine, Nervinii, Nervina; Ciarla (looking closely, I can see it is an "a"), Ciarlo, even Ciarli recorded in the Auburn City Directory. In Italians to America it is Carlo.

As to Francantonio Nervino, I cannot find him on Ellis, even though the passport is stamped "May 8, 1896 Ellis Island." Cannot find him in census for 1910 anywhere. On the passport, cannot make out his father's name.

We did find where Pietro Nevino is buried: Calvary Cemetery in Queens and thanks to Maspeth and Jim Murray, we have a photo of the area (no gravestone) and info on the death certificate.

A relative said that Pietro may have been adopted. Also that he is buried above his daughter, Maria Incoronata. Also the birh certificate for Maria Antonia Nervino born 1893 daughter of Maria Antonia Ciarla Nervino & Pietro. She dissappears as she is not in the 1910 census in Auburn; the mother only lists 5 children total there. Mystery.

I believe Barbara said one of her sisters did research on the Italian branches and her Ancestry.com family tree goes back pretty far there.

Dave

[vj]

As to Francantonio Nervino, I cannot find him on Ellis,
even though the passport is stamped
"May 8, 1896 Ellis Island."

1896 manifest
line 62?

[Essgee]

Have we looked for the variations of Nervegno?

[daveferro]

Esgee, and vj,

vj posted the manifest in the previous reply, so now I CAN SEE! Yes, it's getting closer. Now to figure out if this is the same Frank Nervino in the Mutual Relief Society gravesite. Not in any census at HeritageQuest but I bet he can be found, esp. in Providence.

Thank you all

Dave

[Essgee]

BINGO....BINGO.....BINGO

Barbara and Dave....you are going to love this...

Antonia Maria Ciarla was bornon 21 June 1864 to Raffaele Ciarla, age 23, and his wife Incoronata Pietrolino, age 19. So Antonia Maria is definately the sister of these Ciarlas...

But it gets better...

On 2 July 1883, Antonia Maria Ciarla married FRANCESCANTONIO Nervino in Ripabottoni. He was age was 20 and he had been born in S. Elia a Pianisi which is a few miles south-east of Ripabottoni. Unfortunately, his parents were unknown...but at least now you know who Francescantonio is.

Now who is Pietro...my guess....one and the same with Francescantonio.

Here are some documents that should help:

Pubblicazioni di Matrimonio:
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/9347/scan1oc0.jpg


I blew up the bottom of the Pubblicazioni di Marimonio to make it easier to read:
http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/6940/scan2ly3.jpg

And here is the Atti di Matrimonio:

http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/5457/scanvs8.jpg

Couldn't get a copy of Antonia's birth record...too many people, not enough copiers.....will try again next week.
Now Maria Incoronato Nervino was born 14 Feb 1885 to Francescantonio Nevrino, age 22, and Antonia Ciarla.
Maria Concetta Nervino was born on 1 Feb 1888 to Francescantonio Nervino, age 25, and his wife, Antonia Ciarla.
Both born at #3 Via Paolo Gamba.

Ok.....hope this helps solve the interconnections between these two families....and helps resolve other questions about Francescantonio!

I was excited to find this...so I know you will probably be as well.

Have a great one......Susan

[vj]

WOW!
Susan really neat stuff !
Valarie

[vj]

oops dup, still a big WOW!

[daveferro]

Susan & Valerie,

You can say that (ie Wow) again. The documents will floor all of the relatives. I feel like I am peering into the room, 124 years ago, and witnessing it myself. The Atti seems to say it was morning, I can't make out the hour, but right to the minute: 17. Even we don't do that today.

Also see that his name is Francesco Antonio, which I should have known, shortened (!) to Francesc'antonio, as is the custom with two vowels. I think I read that this is not necessary, but became the norm.

For a minute, I thought I had not given you the names of the great-grandparents, Raffaele Ciarlo di Raimundo e Antonia and Maria Incoronata Pietrillino fu Giovanni. I got this from Barbara to make a simple family tree in order to figure out who was who. The article submitted by Edmondo about naming has been followed faithfully by this family: the names repeat for many generations, except it seems for Giovanni. Got a notice tonight that she added 16 more people to her family tree.

My grandmother Rosa Testa was from Sant'Elia a Pianisi; her sister Maria Concetta came later and married Raffaele (Frank) Nervina, son of Maria Antonia Ciarla (or Ciarlo) Nevino (or Nervina). My mother (foster) remembers Leonardo and Raimundo Giuseppe Ciarlo (changed to Charles), Barbara's great-grandparents.

About Francesco Antonio/Pietro...why would he change his name? And why was he going to Providence? The ages match, though.

Maspeth found the following info at the NYC archives:

Received Sept. 18, 2007
Hi,
Well I got the info from Pietro's death cert and I don't think there is anything on it that you don't know. It reads:
Pietro Nervino
Date of Death:11/30/1902
Age:40
Length of time in U.S.: 14 years
Birth Place: Italy
Occupation: Laborer
Father's name: ? (the clerk put in a question mark in this spot)
Mother's name:? (ditto for mom's name) I quess no one provided this info to the clerk
Cause of death: Homicide-Pulmonary Hemorrhage-penetrating bullet wound of apex of right lung.
Place of death: 419 E. 114th St NYC
Place of Residence: 338 E. 113th St NYC
I also checked out Maria Antonia's Birth Certificate. It doesn't have much more info than the Baptisimal cert.
Maria Antonia Nervino
Female-white
Date of Birth: 7/6/1893
Place of Birth: 410 E. 113th Street NYC
Father name, age and birthplace: Pietro Nervina-age 30-italy
Mother's age and name and birthplace: The clerk only put in Maria Antonia Ciara and not her age or place of birth
Number of previous children born to mother:3
Nunber of children now living:4** this number would include baby Maria Antonia.
Person reporting birth:Filomena Ferrone of 2123 1st Ave*
* this was probably the midwife
So if she had 5 children maybe this birth was not her last.
I checked out the other girl Maria Incoranata. This was really a baby born to two other people who did die at 5 months and not 15 years old. I had to check this out because of some of the mistakes that are made in transcribing to Italiangen.
So, I'm going back to take the picture of Frank's grave. I will call first to see if they have placed the temp marker on it.
Take care,

To add to the confusion, here is the first page of Pietro's handbook for the Harlem Division of the Italian Shooting Club of NYC. There are divisions in NJ as well. Seems that there was funeral provisions, but Pietro only paid his 60 cent monthly dues up to 1900. In the back is a list of members that may be valuable to others. Note that the surname is Nervini, and the head of the division is named Ettore Minervini. Do you think he changed Pietro's surname to match his? Note also that after his name it says "di fu Luigi"...I thought his father/parents were unknown. And this says he was born in Ripabottoni, while Francesco Antonio was born in Sant'Elia a Pianisi. Maybe not the same person but wha?... You know what I mean.



Maria Antonia's age varies. The gravestone must be wrong, as my mother said she died at age 50 and your papers say 1864. In the 1896 passport, it says she was 32, which would be right. But in the 1910 census, the age is 40, but should be 46.



Her father is buried two over from her, past a Civil War soldier. There is no gravestone for Raffaele Ciarlo; he died 21 days after she did.

The 1896 voyage was a just a visit to Italy; my mother told me that her grandfather told her grandmother not to let "the boy" eat anything but white (wheat, not corn) bread. Guess this was because it was his first son; the girls could apparently.
There's so much it is going to take time to digest. I have seen documents (Nuccia's) but now there is a direct connection. Can't wait to show to Tony and to Mary Ann (bringing her to train station tomorrow for NYC).

Sorry to be so gabby; I know I should be concise.

So many thanks, they are uncountable,

Have a good weekend and rest; certainly well deserved.

Dave

[Essgee]

Dave and Barbara..

Another Ciarlo Cousin from Auburn, NY. He has posted to another thread. You might want to check it out!

Have a great one, Susan

[bsnclr]

Wow.... I always wondered if my family was related to other charles in Auburn..... I have posted the connection on that thread... I hope I did it correctly....
-Barbara

[jnervina]

Hello everyone,
I have read with great interest your posts, especially regarding Pietro/Francesc'Antonio Nervina. If I've followed the lineage that you have uncovered, he would be my great-grandfather.

When growing up, I recall a discussion of our Italian family history that included the phrase "I think there is some French mixed in there, too." If that is the case, then I would like to propose a scenario that may fit with the history you have delineated and point to a direction for solving the mysteries surrounding Pietro.

For me it all boils down to one simple question? Why the name change?

Here's my logic (flawed as it may be!):

If there is, indeed, some French in our lineage, then is it possible that Pietro was born out of wedlock to an Italian mom and a French father, given up for adoption and raised in Molise? I don't know what the culture is/was like for adopted children in Italy, but I doubt that it would be as strict as it is here in the States, where adoptees are not informed about their birth parents. Perhaps in Italy, Pietro was told about his parents and family. If possible, then imagine the following:

What if Pietro knew that his father was French and (I'll really go out on a limb here) what if his father's name was Antoine. Then the name change from Pietro to Francesc'Antonio may be a devilishly clever way to acknowledge his French father. "Francese" is Italian for French.

It get's better.

There is a village in Liguria that borders France. The village's name: Rocchetta Nervina. It is very common in Italy for families to take the name of their town as their surname. What if Pietro decided that he would follow suit, thereby identifying himself as Francesco Antonio Nervina to honor his father and his mother's village?

Not convinced yet? How about this:

Pietro's first child was named Raimondo - not a particularly common first name, as Italian names go. There is a family in Rocchetta Nervina whose last name is Raimondo. (You can check this out on Wikipedia!) What if Pietro decided to honor his mother's family by naming his first child after them?

It all seems too improbable for mere coincidence. But, if it is just chance, you have to admit that Pietro's name change is very interesting and suggests some motive that goes beyond the norm. Perhaps Pietro had a wonderfully developed sense of family/identity/heritage mixed with a greater than average level of cleverness!

[jimnerv]

I like your logic, you can have something there. I almost made it to Rochetta Nervina a few years ago.
Pietro is also my Great Grand Father and thanks to Dave Ferro and friends, they have uncovered many mysteries in the Nervina family.
I look forward to further investigation..
I'm Jim Nervina, living in Auburn, very interested in getting more involved in our heritage.