Surname Ciarla/Ciarlo to Charles

[daveferro]

Seems that I have been away from here for quite a long time but have still been searching and finding, thanks to the people here (Susan and Valerie esp) and at Amici and Gente. I still get thrilled when I read the Acts and Banns of Marriage papers, and look at the work Maspeth in NYC did for us through FindAGrave, looking up documents in Manhattan and locating Pietro's grave.

Also have met with jimjerv and share the documents as they are found - not sure who jnervina is, but obviously they share a great grandfather.

And still working on Pietro/Franciscantonio - The Acts and Banns of Marriage that Susan found say that he was born in nearby Sant'Elia a Pianisi, which just happens to be where my grandmother and her sister are from, the latter having married Raffaele Nervina, Pietro's son.

Also, Susan posted a chart showing that paternal grand father of Leonardo, Raimondo, and Antonia was named Raimondo Ciarla, born abt. 1804.That area was under many foreign powers including Spanish and French.

Have been to Seymour Library History Room checking the Italians to America volumes and Ancestry to try to find Francescantonio, but no luck yet, even though we have the passport with May 8, 1896 stamped on it. Susan found a manifest, saying his was going to Providence, RI but the age was 10 years younger. I don't see how they could read it - the passport says 33 and 'di Ignoto' - parents unknown. The story was that he was an orphan.

I'm going back tomorrow as I looked up the post that gave the ship as the SS Patria. That was not on my list of ships that arrived around May 8, but...Also Susan said they had the name as Nardino - that's not in the index at Italians to America. Though they also had Carlo and Ciarlo.

One more thing:
1899 Membership book for New York Shooting Club Harlem Division issued to Pietro Nervini born June 29, 1863 but fu Luigi which means that Pietro's father Luigi is deceased. So if the passport says 'ignoti' and marriage certificates say 'genitori ignoti' just who is Luigi?

Might point out that Barbara Charles has a continuing expanding family tree at Ancestry - found out there that she already had posted the arrival of Raffaele Ciarla and Incoronata Pietrollino Ciarla in 1904. Both jnervina and jnerv should meet her someday - I will e-mail her soon as I have always wanted her to talk to my mother who remembers her grandparents and some great-grandparents.

Dave

[erwinl]

Hello,

I am the great granddaughter of Leonardo Ciarlo, your great grandfather Guiseppe's brother.
I have found my family ancestry just from reading yours.
Leonardo died October 10, 1921 while in the employ of the Empire Gas Company. I searched on Fultonhistory.com to find his obituary, no one in the family knew his cause of death just that his widow blamed America for his death and refused to speak English. We don't have a photo of Leonardo, I was wondering if your family has a photo of the two brother that traveled to America together. If you are interested I can give you Leonardo's branch of the family. Thank you for doing all of the work for me!

Lorraine

[daveferro]

Hi Lorraine,

Barbara Charles (BSNCLR) started this topic and is directly related to you, as well as my mother who raised me (she and my birth mother were cousins). Her grandmother, who she named for, was Antonia Ciarla Nervino, the sister of Leonardo and Giuseppe/Frank.

You should send a PM (personal message) to her to see if she has any photos. Also I will ask my mother's cousin, Tony Nervina, if he has any after Mass tomorrow.

In addition, I'll send an e-mail to Barbara about another cousin. In my last post, I said that she has a growing family tree on Ancestry that you could access.

Let me know if you need any help...

Great to hear from you - I will tell my mother when she finishes watching Mass on TV.

Dave

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

We asked my mother's cousin, Tony Nervina, about any photos, but he had none. We just missed two other cousins after Mass but will try again.

There is a memorial with a photo of his gravestone at Find A Grave - note that the surname is spelled Ciarlo. I have taken photos of many grave sites at St. Joseph for Barbara but this is by someone else.

http://www.findagrave.com/cgi-bin/fg.cgi?page=gr&GSln=Ciarlo&GSfn=Leonardo&GSbyrel=all&GSdy=1921&GSdyrel=all&GSst=36&GScntry=4&GSob=n&GRid=9136031&df=all&

Still have to e-mail Barbara, but she may have gotten a message from this topic.

Your cousins would like any information about you and your relatives.

This is what I found by looking through the Auburn City Directories. Seems that Leonardo came here first and the address of 58 1/2 South Division (later changed to Columbus St) became the barber shop of my mother's father - she was born there as well as two sisters; there was another sister and brother at the next house.

Auburn City Directories - Ciarla -o -i etc

1904 1st mention of Ciarlo, Leonardo, laborer, h 2 Kelsey (no other Ciarlo)

1905 Ciarli, Joseph, lbr, bds 58 1/2 S Division
Leonardo, lbr, h 29 Baker
Raffaele, lbr, bds 581/2 S Division
1st mention of Narvino, Antonio, lbr, 58 1/2 S Division

1906 Ciarli, Joseph, lbr, bds 58 1/2 S Division
Leonardo, lbr, h 29 Baker
Raffaele, lbr, bds 581/2 S Division
Narvino, Antonio, lbr, 58 1/2 S Division

1907 Ciarli, Donato, emp Osborne wks, h over 22 Wallace
Joseph, lbr, h 114 Kelsey
Leonardo, emp Auburn Button wks, h 146 Kelsey
Marco, twine op, h 4 1/2 Mundt ave
Raffaele, lbr, bds h 150 Kelsey
Narvino, Antonio, emp Am Axm Ind, h 58 1/2 S Division
This was the first year of separate listings for Italian and Polish until 1916
Not sure who Marco is, but in the 1906 directory, there is a Ciarlani, Marco, twine op, bds 94 Van Anden - so might be an error

1908 Ciarli, Donato, emp Osborne wks, h over 22 Wallace
Joseph, lbr, h 128 Kelsey
Leonardo, emp Auburn Button wks, h 146 Kelsey
Marco, twine op, h 4 1/2 Mundt ave
Raffaele, lbr, bds h 148 Kelsey

Note that the surname is different, but that could be because the directory company representative misunderstood the person - my relatives often cut off endings when speaking Italian.

I will check on the later directories.

Hope to hear from you soon,

Dave

[erwinl]

Dave,
Leonardo Ciarlo's daughter Mary Rachel Ciarlo and Joseph Busco are my Grandparents.
The flower girl in their wedding was a Nervina, we do not know her first name, she looks to be about 5 years old in the photo. My aunt had their old wedding photo restored and gave me a copy, it's beautiful!
The wedding was Sept. 30, 1923 in St. Francis of Assisi Roman Catholic Church Auburn, NY.
I was able to obtain their marriage certificate from the church, the best man was Nicholas Nardella , the maid of honor was Flora Cerramuria
Would any of your cousins know the flower girls first name?
Please tell my cousins that I appreciate their help, I will tell them a little about me and my family.
My mother was the second daughter of Mary Rachel and Joseph, her name was Rose, she passed away this past October, since her death I have been consumed with old family photographs and finding answers to all of my questions about the family that know one could answer.
I have an older sister Rachel named in honor of her Grandmother Mary Rachel who died when my mother was only seventeen years old from TB. My sister has four sons, one daughter and one granddaughter she lives in Texas.
I have four sons, four granddaughters and two grandsons.
My younger brother has three daughters three grandsons and two granddaughters.
My cousin Joe asked me to say hello to you, he said he knows you! He is the only one besides my sister that shares my interest in the family history.
Lorraine

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

I just showed my mother your post. Her maiden name is Antoinette (actually Antonia, after her grandmother) Nervina and with her next youngest sister, Carrie (actually Chiara, after their maternal grandmother & my great-grandmother), were flower girls for Teresa Charles and Sam Jerome in 1922. She would have been 9 then. We have a photo of that wedding party and I will try to send that later as we have to go to Church soon.

She doesn't remember being flower girl at any other wedding, but since you said it was a Nervina, I will have to ask again (she's 98 and has more energy than I do).

I have put all these photos at http://deferro.mysite.com so you can check them out sooner.

Also printed out your post to show to the other Nervina cousins after Mass. That would be Tony, son of Anthony and grandson of Antonia and Pietro Nervina. There was another daughter, Camilla who might have been a flower girl.

Not sure who Joe is, but there are many Nardella family here, and one of my Dad's nephews is married to Lorie Nardella. What is his last name? And say hello for me too.

I'll get back later to post some more. Has Barbara contacted you yet? I sent an e-mail the other day. Have to check about Leonardo's manifest - do you have it?

Great to hear from you.

Dave

[erwinl]

Dave,

I am so excited to see Maria Antonia, my great grandfather's sister! She was beautiful! I have photo's of Leonardo's wife Maria when she was older but none in her youth and no photo of Leonardo.
I looked through your family photo's and couldn't believe what else I saw, Gracie Nervina I am almost sure she is Gracie Bianchi, my mother told me her maiden name was Nervina. Gracie was like a second mother to me. We lived on Vanida Dr. in Camillus a few houses apart. She had 6 children plus me and my brother. We played over her house almost every day.
You have to tell me if I am right!
Lorraine

[erwinl]

Dave,

I just found a photo of yours Imageshack-nanaandfranqt1.jpg, this photo is of 2 flower girls or it could be a First Communion photo. The girl with the short hair looks like the flower girl in my grandmother's wedding photo. She looks to be a couple years older than she was at the time of the wedding.
Who is this little girl? and what is the date of this photo?
Lorraine

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

First want to send my condolences for your mother -

You are right about Aunt Gracie - can't wait to call her tomorrow.

The photo you found on my ImageShack account is Antoinette and my Aunt Francie Bissi De Marzio at their First Communion. Some of my images are empty for some reason.

My mother (and birth mother's cousin), Antoinette Nervina Basile, says that she remembers the wedding of your grandparents and knew your mother and father.

The children of Frank and Mary Concetta Testa Nervina were Antoinette, Carrie, Ida, Gracie and Pete.

Joseph Busco's brother, William, was godfather to her sister Gracie. We've been looking for a photo of Gracie with her godmother who was their sister Beatrice- can't find it yet, but we will keep looking.

My mother has me very confused about who was who, as she was changing the story while looking through photos, showing me ones of myself or others. It will all be figured out eventually.

Tony wasn't at Mass today and my mother kept saying the two lady cousins weren't the ones we were supposed to ask about any Leonardo photos.

At my family website, did you compare the following photo with yours? This is the one of Teresa Charles and Sam Jerome. Aunt Carrie is the flower girl on the left, and my mother on the right. The haircuts were in style then, and their father was a barber. That is him in front of the shop on S. Division (Columbus). Leonardo lived there first, as I said, but I don't know when the front was added.



Talk to you tomorrow,

Dave

[erwinl]

Dave,

Thank you for your condolences.
It's amazing that we are so connected and have never met or known of each other.
The flowers girl next to the bride looks like she might be the flowers girl at a younger age in my Grandparent's wedding. What is her birthday? the wedding was 9/30/1923 and she looks to be about 4 or 5 years old in the photo, she still has that babyish look to her face. In your photo her face has matured to that of a child. Would the dates work out? Even her socks and **SPAM** look the same in the First Communion photo and the Wedding photo
I made a family tree scrapbook with photos of 6 generations, last night I placed the photo of Maria Antonia, my Great Aunt in it thanks to you.
Oh I almost forgot my cousin Joe's last name is Lasagna.
I do have the info from Ellis Island on Leonardo, his wife and my Grandfather Joe Busco.
Waiting to hear from you,
Lorraine

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

I called at Aunt Gracie's and talked to Mickey about the posts - she said they saw you a few weeks ago, at a wake for Peter's mother-in-law. One of the places family get together, unfortunately.

She was surprised at all the info and I gave her the website (again) - other times it was the usual chaos with all the family, like at Aunt Gracie's birthday party. Tons of cousins. We laughed when I told her we have Polaroid photos of us kids Uncle Sam took in the 1950s - he always had the latest gadgets.

Anyway, my mother was born 12/22/13 and she says the wedding in the photo was in 1922. I'll have to check on that as she has told me who was who in some photos and later changed them, so I had to go back and change all the captions. Only told a few thousand relatives.

Did you notice the family chart ESSGEE did for Giuseppe Ciarla (Frank Charles)in this topic? It goes back 4 generations and shows where all the first names come from.

There is a FindAGrave memorial for Maria Antonia which shows the gravestone and her father Raffaele (your Great-Great Grandfather) is in the same row, but another stone for a Civil War soldier is between them. There is no stone and I have been bugging my mother's brother to get one put in. His wife (your Great-Great Grandmother) is in another location (photo on my site) and says I. P. Ciarla - this took me awhile to figure out as the cemetery has a Dueronata Ciarla listed for that place. I have asked people in Italy (through this forum) and they never heard of such a name.

I figure it means Incoronata Pietrollino Ciarla. Seems that all these women had Maria before their names, but used the second name - Aunt Ida is named after her. One of my mother's aunts (Anna, originally Maria Concetta) Americanized the three sister's names - only Gracie has an original. Another daughter of Antonia was named Maria Incoronata, born in Ripabottoni but died at age 15 - still trying to figure out what happened to her.

I am glad you like the photo of Antonia - I cut one out from the photo of the family in Clyde where she stands and my mother's parents are on the right - the year of their marriage.

Say hi to Joe - we met about 10 years ago, talking about loss of parents. I knew Phyllis better, as she was 1 year behind me at St. Francis and in the same class as my cousin Stan Wawro. He unfortunately passed away last month - and knew everyone. We were actually talking about Joe just a while before - all the people we knew.

Talk to you again - I'll try to find out more and ask about photos.

Dave

[erwinl]

Hi Dave,

Haven't gotten back to you in a while, my family has been dropping like flies, I just lost a cousin, first one of my generation. I have lost 5 family members in the last 10 months.
Prior to the latest funeral I had been contacting relatives trying to find old family photos.
I had never met nor seen a photo of my Great Uncle Vincent Charles, he and my Grandfather had issues. My mother introduced me to Vincent's son Leonard, Leonardo's namesake just a few years ago. I was able to located Leonard and he generously gave me any family photo's I wanted. I now have photos of Vincent and his family but he had none of Leonardo.
Another cousin gave me photo's of Leonardo's wife Mary Carone Ciarlo , her mother Rose Carone my Great Great Grandmother and who my mother was probably named after. Mary's brother Tony Carone, his wife Josephine and their children Jack and Rose .
Her sister Marie Carone Marro but again no photo of Leonardo.
Have you had any luck finding a photo of Leonardo or either of his brothers?
Looking forward to hearing from you,
Lorraine

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

Sorry to hear about more losses in your family.

Last month my cousin Stan, who found my father's diary from WWII, was also lost. That diary let me know a lot about my father so I am eternally grateful to Stan for that, not to mention his friendship.

Again we saw the two cousins at church but my mother said that they were the wrong cousins to ask about Leonardo. I think she may mean someone we saw at a store a few months ago.

The best bet would be to contact Barbara who started this topic and has made a large site at Ancestry - I have sent an e-mail but no response yet. She normally would have gotten a notice when any posts were made here. You should also send a PM (personal message) by going to one of her posts (bsnclr)and clicking on PM, then writing your message. That will also cause a notice to be sent to her e-mail address.

There are two other posters: jimnerv who is Tony Nervina's son who lives in Owasco (but probably has as much as his father) and also jnervina - so PM them, too.

That is great that you got all those photos and made contact with Vincent. There are a whole bundle of your cousins here that you should meet - most are close with Aunt Gracie.

Did the photo I posted with the my mother and aunt look familiar? The bride is your relative too.

I would like to show my mother the wedding photo you have. Could you post it?

We will keep looking around here - had a thought that perhaps Leonardo's photo is in some newspaper (esp. due to the accident) or in some other church documents. Do you know where they went to church or school? St. Francis put a book of photos out last year and we have a copy.

One step is to check in Italy - always looking for relatives there. One of the best things found by the people here (Essgee, VJ, Suanj, wldspirit) was the marriage papers for Antonia and Pietro/Francantonio. Thrilling every time I read them.

Note that wldspirit posted on the first page info on how to access the Family Research website to order microfilm with marriage, birth, death etc certificates in Italian towns.

I'll be doing more checking...we'll find a photo yet.

Dave

[daveferro]

Lorraine,

Here (hopefully) is the photo of Ida's First Communion with your Grandmother as Godmother and Vito Marinelli as Godfather.



Whew!

So, Maria Antonia Ciarla Nervino (changed to Nervina)had:

Maria Concetta (changed her name to Anna)
Maria Incoronata (died at 15 in NYC 1900, unknown causes)
Raffaele Nervino married Maria Concetta Testa
Camilla
Maria Antonia (only have a Baptismal Certificate from Our Lady of Mt. Carmel in 1893- family did not know about this daughter)

and Antonio - father to Tony who you might meet tomorrow.

Dave

[liviomoreno]

Ida looks too young for a First Communion... Usually you must be at lest 6-7 years old, while in this picture she looks 3-4 years old...