Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Genetick » 02 Mar 2014, 02:13

I note the issue you flag with Ermellina's document and have placed a query against those entries in my database. The subsequent link to the marriage entry of Vincenzo and Maria is great, I have been around enough old handwritten Scottish documents combined with my limited Italian language skills even I have been able to work out Vincenzo's mother was Serafina Martinella and Maria's mother was Teresa Gugliani. Your links have been a huge step forward in helping develop the detail that bring a tree to life. :D

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 02 Mar 2014, 14:45

Genetick wrote:I note the issue you flag with Ermellina's document and have placed a query against those entries in my database. The subsequent link to the marriage entry of Vincenzo and Maria is great, I have been around enough old handwritten Scottish documents combined with my limited Italian language skills even I have been able to work out Vincenzo's mother was Serafina Martinelli and Maria's mother was Teresa Gugliani. Your links have been a huge step forward in helping develop the detail that bring a tree to life. :D

GT


I see Vincenzo's mother's surname with an "i" at the end. :-)

Located the Pubblicazioni di Matrimonio (publication of the banns) and it can be seen more clearly there. (Act #17)
You might also note that Maria's father's age and occupation are listed on the record - Giovanni, age 62, carpenter.
And that Maria Pieri's full given name is Maria Umiliana Cesira Pieri :D

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... :743028239

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Genetick » 02 Mar 2014, 15:30

My Italian is not anywhere near good enough to be able to pick up on many of the details contained in the images so professions and place names are often difficult to translate or missed altogether. My wife's Italian is much better and she is a great help although she too often has difficulty with context. Fortunately her mother is fluent in Italian and has some understanding of Latin which really helps.

I am beginning to understanding the need to recognise the associations between the various documents and records for additional information.


On a related note, I have worked out how to access the images on the LDS website but not from the search form. Do you use an indexing system as that would explain how you manage to get results with such speed, whereas my current understanding restricts me to browsing image by image. :(

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 02 Mar 2014, 18:53

Genetick wrote:My Italian is not anywhere near good enough to be able to pick up on many of the details contained in the images so professions and place names are often difficult to translate or missed altogether. My wife's Italian is much better and she is a great help although she too often has difficulty with context. Fortunately her mother is fluent in Italian and has some understanding of Latin which really helps.

I am beginning to understanding the need to recognise the associations between the various documents and records for additional information.


On a related note, I have worked out how to access the images on the LDS website but not from the search form. Do you use an indexing system as that would explain how you manage to get results with such speed, whereas my current understanding restricts me to browsing image by image. :(

GT


Hello GT!

SOMETIMES there is an index available at the beginning or end of each "book" of acts (births, deaths, marriages) if we are lucky. That will help a great deal in giving us a target for where to start searching. However, we are often required to search page by page for records, which as you know, can be slow.

The volunteers here at the forum have become more familiar with the records, and that helps our search to go "somewhat" quicker (knowing where to search :-) )...
The more searches - the more experience with the records, including what they say!
You will find that it will become that way for you as well.

Here is a resource link that will help with some of the occupations you may see:
http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... cupati.htm

...and with the handwriting, including alphabet charts, word lists, given names, etc.
https://script.byu.edu/Pages/Italian/en/basics.aspx

ALSO... at the top of this page of the forum you will see a link for "Italian Records Extraction" which is a wonderful resource for understanding the various records.
You might also consider reading Trafford Cole's book on Italian Genealogical Records
http://www.amazon.com/Italian-Genealogi ... 0916489582

Enjoy the journey! :-)

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby mjclayton1 » 01 Jun 2014, 19:52

Saluti! This string has fascinating historical potential for a family line I've been trying to trace for my long-time girlfriend. I'm trying to track down the family lineage for her Grandmother, Gilda Maria Saisi, from Italy. To the best of my (our) knowledge, we know Gilda's maiden name is Pelosi and that Gilda's mother's maiden name is Pieri. This information is gleaned from a live person, not merely "guesswork."

Some background information: my girlfriend's father is Alfred Elio Saisi, born on 11-21-1927 in San Francisco, CA. Alfred is 86 and is still alive (City of Yountville in Napa County, CA). Alfred's father, Ferdinando Saisi, was born on July 14, 1897 in Italy. I'm not sure of the exact locale, but all indications are that the Saisi family is primarily from Gallicano (Lucca).

Ferdinando came to America in December, 1911, arriving at Ellis Island (NY) on the ship "La Lorraine" originating from La Havre, France on January 2, 1912. Ferdinando had traveled with his mother, Ersilia Saisi (DOB Dec. 9, 1878, DOD March 17, 1933), and also Assunta Simonini (DOB approx. 1846). Ersilia's maiden name is Simonini, so it would appear that Assunta was Ersilia's mother (our records indicate that Assunta died on MArch 13, 1927 at the age of 80).

The 1912 Ellis Island ship manifest (link below) indicated that all three were to see a cousin in San Francisco, CA: Carlo Puccetti. Carlo is listed as a cousin of Ersilia Saisi and a nephew of Assunta Simonini.

http://search.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/sse. ... plz0q3dpid

I've done limited research on Carlo, but it seems like he may have relatives in Chicago, Illinois. Carlo is not my primary concern/inquiry (for the moment anyway)...

It sure seems like the info that Tessa78 provided in this string (and copied below) could be speaking to the parents of the very same "Gilda" that I'm looking for.

1893 – Record #363 – dated 16 June – birth on 13th
Maria Isma Gilda
Same parents
Given name MARIA ISMA GILDA
https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... 1897926900

If so, this would be a truly wonderful discovery. If anyone wishes to expound upon this, please feel free to do so. Our U.S. records show two possible birth-dates for Gilda Maria Saisi: June 15, 1891 or June 13, 1893, so with a slight number switch here or there, it seems like this could yet be the same Gilda Saisi (Pelosi) who is one of the sisters of (Maria) Erina Pelosi. (BTW, Gilda Saisi died on December 27, 1970 in Napa, CA, but like most of the Saisi's, lived nearly all her life in or around San Francisco, CA.)

If it's helpful, I do have additional information surrounding Ersilia Saisi and will offer that as needed.

Grazie Mille!!!
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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 03 Jun 2014, 20:27

Hello mjclayton1 :-) Welcome to the forum.

Could you repost your links? The one you indicate is an Ellis Island manifest comes up as a 1920 Census

The 1893 doucment does not come up at all.

Once I have looked at the records, I can begin to look at the genealogical information you have posted.

EDIT TO ADD:

I located the 1912 Ellis Island manifest that you referenced for Ersilia and Ferdinando.
You may wish to look at it again...
Carlo Puccetti was the cousin they were LEAVING in Gallicano...
On the second page of the manifest, you will see that they are going to Ersilia's husband Giuseppe Saisi, 433 Fulton St., San Francisco.

Assunta Simonini is leaving nephew Carlo Puccetti in Gallicano, and going to SON Giovanni Simonini at 5354 Houston(?) St., S. Francisco. On page one her destination was amended to read "Ft. Bragg"

There are numbers written in the line for Ferdinando indicating he may have begun the naturalization process.

Here is the birth record in Gallicano for Ferdinando Saisi in 1897
Record #74 (bottom left of image)
Dated 17 July 1897 at 1:07 AM at the town office in Gallicano
Before the official appeared Leonilda Pellegrini, 53 year old midwife residing in Gallicano, to declare that on the 14th of the current month at the place in Gallicao at Via dellTremo(?) to a woman who does not wish to be named, was born a male child who was presented to the official and to whom was given the name FERDINANDO and the surname Saisi..

The notation in the left column under his name states that he is the legitimate son of married couple Vincenzo Saisi and Ersilia Simonini who were married in Gallicano on 1 December 1898, Act #23.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,350142701



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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Genetick » 03 Jun 2014, 21:34

Hi MJ

Thanks for posting on this topic. Your information makes very interesting reading and it would be good to establish if we are both looking for the same families although with the info to date its still a very long shot.

I thought I'd send a reply, although I can't expand on anything at this stage.
I note you mention the Saisi family are primarily from Gallicano (Lucca) which itself is intriguing as I have connections from my Andreoni (Pelosi /Pieri) lines who are married into Moscardini and Renucci families from Barga and Sommocolonnia respectively. A bit of digging on these lines might yield some more info. I also believe I recall the surname Saisi being mentioned in a fairly recent family discussion although it may have been a similar name or it may have been for someone linked to one of my Renucci lines not Pelosi.

I will look through what notes I have and try to expand.

cheers
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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 03 Jun 2014, 21:41

Marriage of Vincenzo Saisi and Ersilia Simonini
Record #23
Dated 1 December 1898 at 11;15 AM at the town office in Gallicano
Groom: Vincenzo Saisi, single, 26, laborer born in Gallicano, residing in said place; son of Pietro [Saisi] and of Giacinta Puppa, both residing in said place
Bride: Ersilia Simonini, single, 21, born in Gallicano, residing in said place; daughter of Marco [Simonini] and of Assunta Simonini, residing in said place.
Witnesses: Raffaele Saisi, son of Giuseppe, age 31, laborer; and Felice Saisi, son of Paolino, 27, laborer; both residing in this town.
Publication of the banns of marriage were 12th and 19th of the month of June of the current year.
The married couple gave testimony that from their natural union was born a male child who was presented to the official as parents unknown by the midwife Leonilda Pellegrini on 17 July 1897, and to whom was given the name Ferdinando Saisi, and they wish to recognize this child as their legitimate child.

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,350142701

BTW - no need to repost the links. Found them both :-)

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Genetick » 03 Jun 2014, 23:23

Hi MJ

Rather than clog up the thread with dialog I have sent you a PM with a few comments that might help establish a definite link

cheers
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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby mjclayton1 » 03 Jun 2014, 23:59

Holy heck, Tessa78 and genetick - you guys are really on your game! The second page of manifest concept is new to me, so I must've been missing something in the translation all along. Thanks for that additional insight. I'm at work now, and the next two nights are somewhat booked, but I will try and get back on topic here very soon. However, as an additional "teaser" for you I can assure you that Ersilia Saisi was indeed married to a "Giusseppe" Saisi, whom lived in SF - only there was a twist! (to follow) Also, the Rafaelle Saisi angle is really throwing me off. Could this be from "another" Giuseppe Saisi? I really appreciate your (combined) efforts here. Just amazing stuff...

MJC
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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Genetick » 04 Jun 2014, 00:14

MJ

edited:
As an aside and when you have some time ask your ltgf or her father if they have cousins with the surname Ferrari.

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 05 Jun 2014, 01:14

mjclayton1 wrote:Holy heck, Tessa78 and genetick - you guys are really on your game! The second page of manifest concept is new to me, so I must've been missing something in the translation all along. Thanks for that additional insight. I'm at work now, and the next two nights are somewhat booked, but I will try and get back on topic here very soon. However, as an additional "teaser" for you I can assure you that Ersilia Saisi was indeed married to a "Giusseppe" Saisi, whom lived in SF - only there was a twist! (to follow) Actually, the marriage record identifies her spouse as VINCENZO Saisi abovr

Ilso, the Rafaelle Saisi angle is really throwing me off. Could this be from "another" Giuseppe Saisi?

definitely could be another Giuseppe. There were Many SAISI in the town...
I really appreciate your (combined) efforts here. Just amazing stuff...

MJC


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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby mjclayton1 » 05 Jun 2014, 16:13

Thanks for that, Tessa78...

To now summarize re: Ersilia, she originally was married to Vincenzo Saisi (his first name was what was eluding us). She had two boys with Vincenzo:

Ferdinando (Carol's Grandfather) - DOB 7-14-1897
Pietro Saisi- (Carol's' Grand Uncle) - DOB June 3, 1899 (we believe)

At that point, Vincenzo must've somehow passed, but we don't know how or on what date. The "twist" noted in my comments above is that Ersilia subsequently married Vincenzo's younger brother, Giuseppe! This made Giusseppe not only Ferdinando's uncle, but, seemingly, also his "step-father"

Ersilia had two boys with Gisueppe, both born in America (and both being half-brothers... and also somehow cousins???... to Ferdinando and Pietro):

Mario Joseph Saisi - B: April 28, 1913; D: Dec. 18, 1973
Rudolf Lino Saisi - B: Sept. 29, 1914; D: July 5, 2009

Is there any way to verify both the death of Vincenzo (in Italy) and also the birth of Pietro (also in Italy)?

Thank you again for your wonderful input. It's truly appreciated.

[P.S. - As to your last comment, it's probably not a stretch to think that Carol may somehow be related, if only distantly, to the recently elected "sindaco" (Mayor) of Gallicano, David Saisi...]
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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby Tessa78 » 05 Jun 2014, 23:24

mjclayton1 wrote:Thanks for that, Tessa78...

To now summarize re: Ersilia, she originally was married to Vincenzo Saisi (his first name was what was eluding us). She had two boys with Vincenzo:

Ferdinando (Carol's Grandfather) - DOB 7-14-1897
Pietro Saisi- (Carol's' Grand Uncle) - DOB June 3, 1899 (we believe)

At that point, Vincenzo must've somehow passed, but we don't know how or on what date. The "twist" noted in my comments above is that Ersilia subsequently married Vincenzo's younger brother, Giuseppe! This made Giusseppe not only Ferdinando's uncle, but, seemingly, also his "step-father"

Ersilia had two boys with Gisueppe, both born in America (and both being half-brothers... and also somehow cousins???... to Ferdinando and Pietro):

Mario Joseph Saisi - B: April 28, 1913; D: Dec. 18, 1973
Rudolf Lino Saisi - B: Sept. 29, 1914; D: July 5, 2009

Is there any way to verify both the death of Vincenzo (in Italy) and also the birth of Pietro (also in Italy)?

Thank you again for your wonderful input. It's truly appreciated.

[P.S. - As to your last comment, it's probably not a stretch to think that Carol may somehow be related, if only distantly, to the recently elected "sindaco" (Mayor) of Gallicano, David Saisi...]


Here is the birth of PIETRO SAISI, son of VINCENZO and of ERSILIA SIMONINI,


(There is also a Pietro Saisi, son of Giuseppe, and Adele Fabbri at the next record )

Record #61 (top left of image)
Dated 6 June 1899 at 9:20 AM at the town office in Gallicano
Before the official appeared the same midwife as for Ferdinando, to declare that
At 7:30 PM on the 3rd of the current month at the place at Via dell’Eramo #70,
To Ersilia Simonini, housewife, wife of Vincenzo Saisi, laborer, both residing in Gallicano, was born a male child who was presented to the official and to whom was given the name PIETRO

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/T ... ,350142701

The online records for deaths and marriages in Gallicano end in 1899. I suspect that Ersilia and Giuseppe married about 1910-1912.

You have two options here:
You can write directly to the Comune of Gallicano to request their marriage record, and the death of Vincenzo.
OR
You can rent and view the microfilms from the LDS at your nearest Family History Center.
Here is one of the films that may hold those records:
Nati 1904-1910; Pubblicazioni 1900-1910; Matrimoni 1900-1910; Morti 1900-1910
Family History Library International Film 2096600 Items 1 - 4

Link to the Family History site/catalog
https://familysearch.org/search/catalog ... %20Library

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Re: Andreoni from Vorno, Capannori

Postby mjclayton1 » 06 Jun 2014, 07:01

Thanks much, Tessa. U R awesome! :D
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