As a nation state, Italy has emerged only in 1871. Until then the country was politically divided into a large number of independant cities, provinces and islands. The currently available evidences point out to a dominant Etruscan, Greek and Roman cultural influence on today's Italians.
Dear Nucia trafford Cole's book and the small print that comes up in your message AGREES with FHL description of Ruolo di Congedo illimitato. So now I have two authorities to rely upon. Thank you . =Peter=
PeterTimber wrote:Dear Nucia trafford Cole's book and the small print that comes up in your message AGREES with FHL description of Ruolo di Congedo illimitato. So now I have two authorities to rely upon. Thank you . =Peter=
Yes Peter..I was not taking sides, I was offering, as you asked for, sources..
maybe I can say my opinion...
abt the author topic inquiry, the better way is to request in State Archive of birth province the copy of :
the CONGEDO ILLIMITATO is not the same thing and not helpful abt the inquiry of author topic..
For know all military story of your ancestor, you must request the RUOLO MATRICOLARE copy ... best regards to all, suanj
"Images and my and your interpretationof the documents and records are totally not acceptable since these determinations on your part or even my part are subjective...."
Peter, I'm sorry but how can you possibly refute the evidence of the images posted here of the documents in question?
Ricbru has posted clear evidence of what constitutes a CONGEDO ILLIMITATO.
That clearly contains a lot of information on the soldiers role during his military service. It is used to record in his Stato Civile that his military obligations have been met and if he can be recalled.
But it is NOT his Foglio Matricolare (Military Service Record).
The congedo is a demobilisation document that mentions certain areas of competence attained during the individuals military service. The Foglio Matricolare (Military Service Record) can be likened to a hospital record where everything is recorded.
My great grandfathers 'service record' ran to SEVENTEEN PAGES (he liked being a soldier). Yet another uncles record was only one page!
De Mauro (Italian Dictionary) quotes:
foglio matricolare TS milit., documento nel quale vengono registrati tutti i dati relativi al servizio prestato da ogni singolo militare.
congedo illimitato loc.s.m.
TS milit., posizione dei militari in congedo per i quali rimangono degli obblighi solo in caso di necessitÃ congedo illimitato provvisorio loc.s.m.
TS milit., posizione del cittadino, soggetto agli obblighi militari, nel periodo compreso tra lâ€™arruolamento e la chiamata alle armi
N.B. If anyone would like a full translation of these two entries in De Mauro- just say!
Dear Elba the two souyrces, FHL in Salt Lake City and Trafford's book (which I suspect is a rehash of the FHL Italy Military records) has been confirmed by the European Section in a telephone call I made yesterdfay and they firmly stiood their ground about the Discharge Records (Foglio di Congedo Illimitato). Consequently I stand on the findings of that august body who have brought me up to date and confirmed their records as being accurate as it relates to
1: The record prove a soldier's discharge from military service
2: They include birth information, parents names, physical description
vocation,and education information
3: They also give information regarding the date and place of draft,
length of service, transfers, campaigns, medals and wounds.
One copy of the record is given to the soldier and another copy is kept in his file.
This is the official regulation concerning Discharge records by a competent 3rd party and I do not accept any other personal or subjective interpretation. =Peter=
I was not of the same opinion of Peter because until this morning I knew only the front page of the old italian discharging paper.
The knew discharging paper is not such specific and detailed like the old ones.
Peter you were right
p.s. there is always time to learn from older people!!!
Dear VJ, Nuccia, Suanj and Elba I wish to thank you all for your kindness and support in clarifying the Italian Military records discussion which has been now resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Drinks are on me!!!=Peter=
PeterTimber wrote:Dear VJ, Nuccia, Suanj and Elba I wish to thank you all for your kindness and support in clarifying the Italian Military records discussion which has been now resolved to everyone's satisfaction. Drinks are on me!!!=Peter=
Make mine a double, please!
I'm with vj...great thread, fascinating exhange and excellent learning experience for us all. Nice job!