New Italian Law March 2009

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby doncariddi » 01 Aug 2010, 13:18

Are there any 'new' legal rulings with the 1/1/48 rule? I have been communicating with an immigration lawyer in Italy, who says he has won recent cases (Luigi Pianiao). One as recently as July 2010.

I have determined my paternal grandfather bloodline will not work for me as although my grandfather was born in Italy his father having been naturalized in turn passed that onto his son (my GF). I was looking at my paternal Grandmother who while born in the U.S. was born to An Italian Father and Italian Mother as her father did not Naturalize until 7 years after her birth in the U.S. She then married my GF who was naturalized so I'm not sure how that effects her citizenship as she technically was a U.S. citizen by Birth but born from Italian Citizen Parents.

Beyond that, upon my Father being born on 6/17/47, clearly before 1/1/48 he then from the 1948 rule does not get the Italian bloodline, but his brother and sister born after 1/1/48, do.

Are there any cases where someone has challenged a son being born prior to 1/1/48 from what appears to still be an Italian 'bloodlined' Mother or is this too many things going against me and I should just deal with the 3-year citizenship in Italy when that time comes?

I now any immigration attorney would love to take my money, I'd be willing to take a shot, but I would like to perhaps hear of other immigration lawyers for their opinions if someone could direct me to any? I've only emailed a bit with Luigi Pianiano but would certainly like to hear of others that someone could recommend.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Aug 2010, 13:47

I have read of Luigi Pianiano and the challenges to the 1948 limitation before.

My small understanding of the matter is that the Italian court system is such that the rulings won by Painiano do not have the import of "prior rulings' as they would in US courts; each case is effectively an entirely new case to be decided on its own merits.

Also, although there have been some small number (?) of victorious challenges to the 1948 rule, they have all (?) occurred within a small area of Italy and similar results may not necessarily be had in other provincial courts.

FWIW, the issue of removing the 1948 restriction entirely occasionally comes up in the Italian legislature; there is no telling if or when it might actually make it to a vote.

The ExpatsInItaly forum ( http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/viewforum.php?f=2 ) is a good place to find additional info on this subject.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 01 Aug 2010, 21:40

Totally agree. I too have heard of Pianiano, and this question has been asked many times before. The law before the 1948 change did not permit women to pass on citizenship, and the new law was not retroactive. Unlike in the U.S., Italian courts do not recognize the concept of precedent, so that even if such a case has been won, the result is limited to that one case; and it's possible that there were some extenuating circumstances that prompted the ruling.

That we have heard so little on the many citizenship forums about "successes" pursuing a legal challenge, I would expect the likelihood of success to be extremely small and the costs to be very high. Were I in your position, I would go the three-year route.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby doncariddi » 01 Aug 2010, 23:05

Wait? So when women got the 'right' to pass on their italian bloodline to their children in 1/1/1948 it was NOT retroactive? It is ONLY for a woman born on or after 1/1/1948?

From the boards I've seen the 1/1/1948 rule applies to the children of the italian mother, if what you are saying is true, then it appears my only option is the 3-year naturalization.

Although, my paternal Grandmother was born from my her father (my ggf) who was not yet naturalized. She was born in the US, so I believe that she then did not really loose her Italian bloodline? Then if my father was born after 1/1/48 I would quilify....in my case, he was born 6 months before that.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 01 Aug 2010, 23:21

It's not the date of the woman's birth that matters; it's the date of the child's birth. If an Italian woman was born in 1923 and had a child in 1947, that child was unable to obtain citizenship from his mother. If that same woman has another child in 1949, that child is able to obtain Italian citizenship.

So you're right then. If your father was born in 1947, he could only obtain Italian citizenship from his father. His mother was not able to pass on her citizenship at that time.

It is always sad to me when some siblings in a family qualify and others do not simply because of a date.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby johnnyonthespot » 01 Aug 2010, 23:24

doncariddi wrote:Wait? So when women got the 'right' to pass on their italian bloodline to their children in 1/1/1948 it was NOT retroactive? It is ONLY for a woman born on or after 1/1/1948?


No, no. :)

It applies to a woman's children born on or after 1/1/1948. That is, if a woman gave birth to Giovanni on March 1, 1947 and then immediately got herself knocked up again (sorry, I just couldn't resist) and gave birth to Giuseppe on January 1, 1948 - then Giovanni did not inherit Italian citizenship from his mother whereas Giuseppe did.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 01 Aug 2010, 23:35

It seems we posted a response almost simultaneously. :D BTW, I love the google earth application. It's not only great for "visiting" your Italian comune; it's also helpful when you're house hunting. Sometimes seeing a neighborhood online can save a trip.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby doncariddi » 02 Aug 2010, 00:01

Thanks for the laugh :D Yes, that is exactly the issue with my dad...his two siblings born after apparently do qualify and of course, as you might guess, they could care less!

I've not heard of any lawsuits that specifically address my issue....and it is amazing 6 months makes such a big deal. It seems my options are waiting it out and perhaps they will change that 1/1/48 rule, of course I'll assume just like the U.S., bills never really get anywhere, anytime soon. Option 2, wait till I am a retirement age, have enough money/income to live in Italy income-free for 3 years and get it that way, or roll the dice on an 'iffy' lawsuit that of course, has no guarantees. Pianiano 'claims' he recently won a lawsuit similar to mine that he is awaiting the 'full decision' but of course, he is a lawyer and is looking to make money!

Out of curiosity, the 3 year naturalization, is there any chance they may get rid of that? Also, I assume I would need to prove the Italian Bloodline providing the same documents? GF birth certificate, marriage certs, all the down the chain to me? I ask in that at the very least I should get all of that together and at least have it, if and when the time comes.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 02 Aug 2010, 02:37

There are never any guarantees, and laws change all the time, but it seems unlikely that they will change the three-year residency requirement. IMHO, there is a better chance of changing the 1948 rule. In any case, changes are not made frequently or quickly.

In order to qualify for the three-year residency, you need to prove that you are within two-degrees (grandparent) of an Italian citizen. For this option, you qualify through both your maternal and paternal line. So, if you are gathering documents, you can use the line that is easiest.

It's always unfortunate when some siblings qualify and others do not. Italian citizenship law in terms of jure sanguinis is very liberal, but this aspect of the law seems unfair. I'm really sorry it does not work for you.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby johnnyonthespot » 02 Aug 2010, 12:27

A small follow-up to mler's comments:

1) Perhaps it is obvious, but you will not require any documents pertaining to your ancestor's naturalization (or lack of) when applying for three year expedited Italian naturalization.

2) Italian citizenship obtained through naturaliazation does not pass automatically to your already-living children unless they are minors living in your household. In jus sanguinis cases, it is recognized that you are and always were an Italian citizen; in naturalization cases, you gain Italian citizenship at the moment you naturalize and it is not retroactive. This is a major deficiency as compared to jus sanguinis citizenship.

3) All foriegn (that is, non-Italian) documents such as birth and marriage certificates still require certification, translations, and apostilles. They also require the extra step of "legalization" - a process performed by the Italian consulate which has jurisdiction in the area where the document originated.

4) It's just a guess, but I suspect that - especially if applying through an entirely male lineage - you may be able to get away with nothing more than birth certificates; your own, your father's, and your grandfather's. After all, why should anything more be required to prove bloodline and lineage?
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby PeterTimber » 02 Aug 2010, 12:39

For the 3 year rule concerning acquisition of Italian citizenship for which I qualify would I need to continually reside in Italy or can I fly to and fro??

My (fathers )grandfather died in Italy and my mother and father were born in the USA but (mothers) father died inthe USA. Would I need more than my father's birth record and mine in Italy? =Peter=
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 02 Aug 2010, 12:48

It seems logical that you will only need to prove a direct line from your Italian grandfather to you (not that logic always applies :-( unfortunately). The three-year option is available to those with a second-degree connection to an Italian citizen. You need to prove that connection, and I believe that is all.

Even Italian citizens (and residents) occasionally travel outside the country. I believe that official residency requires you to live in Italy for more than six months of the year, something that will also obligate you to pay Italian taxes. Check with the consulate, though, for official confirmation.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby PeterTimber » 02 Aug 2010, 13:40

Italian taxes are deductible from American taxes from what I hear. Can I have two wives? =Peter=
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby doncariddi » 07 Aug 2010, 15:33

Sorry, I have ANOTHER question, perhaps someone may explain.

I have my Grandfather's original certificate of citizenship. It has a number in RED, upper right begging with the letter 'A' and 6 digits.

It clearly says original and clearly has 2 different dates as follows within the document:

1) Sept 12, 1927 which is his date of arrival at Ellis Island. "Be it known that (NAME of Grandfather) now residing at (address of grandfather) having applied to the commissioner of Immigration and Naturaliziation for a certificate of citizenship pursuant to Section 341 of the Immigration and Nationality Act having proved to the satisfaction of the Commissoner, that s(he) is now a citizen of the United States of America and became a citizen thereof on September 12, 1927 and is now in the United States.

2) Oct 12, 1953 which is states "Now therefore in pursuance of the authority contained in Section 341 of the Immigration and Nationality Act this certificate of citizenship issued on this 12th day of October in the year of the Lord in nineteen hundred and fifty-three...."


Keeping in mind my GGF was the one who applied for Naturalization and was here in the US prior to my GF who remained in Italy 5 years longer. In theory, my GGF's naturalization passed to my GF as he was a minor (age 7) upon his arrival to Ellis Island. I would think as of that date is a Citizen of course, however, does the latter date, above, (oct 12, 1953) have any bearing on italian dual citizenship?

The later is the 'issue' date when my grandfather received the document, whereas, the first date is the date he arrived at Ellis Island.

I would assume the Italian Consulate would use the earlier date but as I pour over documents, this question came to mind.
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Re: New Italian Law March 2009

Postby mler » 07 Aug 2010, 15:52

The consulate will use the earlier date. That is the date his citizenship began, but since he did not have a certificate issued in his own name, he petitioned the courts for one. He did not have to take an oath; he simply had his citizenship acknowledged on paper.

Your gf became a citizen in fact (not in theory) in 1927, and this is indicated on that certificate. The 1953 date has no bearing on dual citizenship; it is the 1927 date that counts.
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