COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 18 Feb 2012, 18:47

rjnigro, can you explain more about the NY State (not NYC) process?


The Court order I obtained was specific to the birth date discrepancy between my GF's Petition for Naturalization and his Itamian BC. Other documents for him and my father that I had amended in some cases included first names, we're all NYC jurisdiction documents. NYC is more accommodating than documents under solely NYSE pervue. I recall reading something about amending NYS jurisdictional documents. I'll try to look it up next week as I am traveling at the moment.

When is your appointment with the NY Consulate? Which particular municipality (ies) did the birth/death/ marriages occur?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby JJ313 » 18 Feb 2012, 19:26

The action would be the same to amend a NYS document as it is to amend a NYC document. The only difference would be the venue. Actions involving NYC are generally filed at the NYS Supreme Court for NY County as vital records is located in NY county. You would file the action in the county having jurisdiction over the agency where you are applying for the amendment.

How will you prove one and the same? Do you have evidence of a name change? What documents do have that link Frank with Francesco other than the obvious Anglicization?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby reboot365 » 19 Feb 2012, 05:18

rjnigro, my appointment is mid June. Everything that occurred (births, deaths, marriages, etc.) that happened in the US all happened in upstate NY.

JJ313, I'm not really sure how to prove it. His Italian documents say the Italian name, the NYS documents say Frank Williams (my GM BC, his DC, my GM MC). His naturalization document uses his Italian name. And since he didn't elect to change his name at naturalization (I can get proof of that), plus from conversations from my GM, he never officially changed his name to Frank. Census records also list him as Frank Williams. Even his gravestone. But, like I said, it was never legal. I feel really unlucky that Guglielmi and Williams are so far apart in spelling, although equal in meaning.

I did however get NYS to change his death certificate from Frank Williams to Francesco Guglielmi. Since I have the long form copy, you can clearly see Frank crossed out and replaced with Francesco. I don't know why they had no problem changing that, but not the BC.

But I'm not really sure what they're looking for when filing a one in the same. Heck, I don't even know what I'm supposed to file, I'm at a complete loss.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby Italia1963 » 19 Feb 2012, 15:56

The action would be the same to amend a NYS document as it is to amend a NYC document. The only difference would be the venue. Actions involving NYC are generally filed at the NYS Supreme Court for NY County as vital records is located in NY county. You would file the action in the county having jurisdiction over the agency where you are applying for the amendment.


Actually, the courts in New York are formally referred to as The Unified Court System, and the courts are broken down into 10 districts, which NYC being one of those districts. However, you can file a petition in any of the 10 NYS Supreme Court Districts (Nassau and Suffolk Counties are District 10 but have separate Supreme Courts, so in essence there are actually 11 courts). Any Supreme Court has jurisdiction over the entire state so you do not have to go to NYC to file a petition, you can go to your closest Supreme Court. Sometimes, its even better not going directly to NYC Supreme because of how busy the court is and it might be worth finding a court with less cases on their dockets.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby JJ313 » 19 Feb 2012, 19:10

With all due respect Italia1963, I believe you commingled a few aspects of the NY courts. First there are 13 judicial districts in the state and these are the first level of appellate review from one of the 62 county courts (and not to mention the numerous town and city courts) in the state. The trial courts are referred to as the New York State Supreme Court (Civil or Criminal Division, New York County), at least that is what it is called on any pleading. The judicial districts would appeal to one of 4 Departments. Appeals from here would then go to the New York State Court of Appeals (the highest state court).

Actions must be filed in the proper venue. The residence of the parties and the nature of the action determines the proper venue. Also, there are specific courts and rules in dealing with actions against the city state or agencies of either. You cannot chose any court in the state.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby JJ313 » 19 Feb 2012, 19:18

Reboot, what about your GGF MC? Is that from Italy? Can you tie it to your GM through your GGM maiden name? You might be able to use that together with all your documents and a few affidavits and the DC to show one and the same. What about real estate records, wills bank accounts, etc.?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby Italia1963 » 19 Feb 2012, 22:47

JJ313, you definitely right about there being 13 districts (rather than the 10 I mentioned) as I was counting NYC as one and it is broken up into different districts.

However, having spoken with several Law Clerks of Supreme Court Judges and with 2 different Supreme Court Chief Clerk's,as well as the head of the Special Term Office, I was assured that Supreme Court Judges have jurisidiction throughout the entire New York State. If someone lives along the border of Canada and needs to file a claim against the NYC Dept. of Health, they do not have to travel to NYC Supreme Court - they can file the petition at their closest Supreme Court in their District. It is not like NYC Dept. of Health will not know about the case if you file the petition upstate. Part of the petition process, as you may know, requires the petitioner to inform the NYC Dept. of Health, or if you are going against the NYS Dept. of Health, to notify them by mail (as well as the NYS Attorney General) and they will have a set amount of time to reply to the court case.

Reboot, Im not an attorney, so PLEASE don't take my word for it, but I have not had any problems working on my court case which is somewhat similar. It may be a good idea to visit the Supreme Court courthouse where you had planned to submit your papers, and speak with the Chief Clerk or with the Special Term office and they can let you know if you are in the right place.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby JJ313 » 20 Feb 2012, 00:05

Basically the county courts do have statewide jurisdiction. Proper venue has to do with where an action can be brought. Generally speaking venue can be where the plaintiff resides were the defendant resides or where the incident giving rise to the action occurred, e.g. a car accident. Someone living in Buffalo cannot sue an Albany resident for damages in a Rochester car accident in NY county. The court has jurisdiction but the venue is improper.

There are exceptions to just about every rule and in dealing with actions against NYC or
NYS one should pay careful attention to the rules of civil procedure as they differ from normal actions. For example, suits against the state are handled by the Court of Claims.

Reboot if you live in NYS you should contact your local county court. The clerk should be able to provide guidance as to proper venue, but the clerk cannot provide legal advice.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby reboot365 » 20 Feb 2012, 03:43

JJ313, my GGF's MC is from Italy. My GM's BC has a typo for her mom's name, but NYS said that they would correct that. So once that's done, there will be a connection. Also, his death certificate lists his wife's maiden name for some reason, so a further connection. I'm not sure about the other documents you listed - worth a look, but based on what I know so far, very unlikely.

All of the relevant documents are in Washington Co. Alas, I'm four hours away in NYC. I have family up there still that's been helping me, so I'll see if they can contact that county to see where to start.

Italia, do you have any guidance as to what I should be doing? I get that you can't really give legal advice, but I'm talking like I'm at the absolute bottom of understanding what I need to do. Like, is there a form? Do I have to file...not sure what, but something? How do I know what proof or affidavits they need?
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby JJ313 » 20 Feb 2012, 05:11

Do you live in NYS? You mentioned relatives in Washington Co. If you are filing a one and the same action it is a declaratory judgment that you would most likely file in Washington Co. If you want NYS to change a vital record you would have to petition the court to direct the Dept of Health to make the change.

The MC sounds promising tying that in to your GM's BC through your GGM.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby Italia1963 » 20 Feb 2012, 23:48

Reboot...
check the following web page out. It gives information on help you can get from the court in starting a court case "pro se" (which basically means you will be representing yourself without an attorney)
http://www.nycourts.gov/courts/nyc/civi ... nter.shtml
It would be best if you could sit down with the clerk in the pro se office who will give you the forms and explain the steps you have to take. I dont have my paperwork in front of me, but from what I remember, you have to write out a Notice of Petition, a Verified Petition, an Order, an Affidavit of Service, Request for Judicial Intervention(RJI), Application for Index Number and Certification of Section 130-1. (The last four are actually forms that are the same from case to case...it is the first three which have a particular format to follow but differ from case to case - but Im sure they have copies on what the format should look like.).
There are also rules you have to follow on serving the NYS Dept. of Health and NYS Attorney General. I think it all costs about $300 when you buy your index number and RJI.
If all you have to do is change the one document, count yourself lucky. I have over 25 documents with more than 75 errors that need to be addressed.
You may feel overwhelmed by all the steps you have to follow but once the Pro Se office helps you out, it will all make sense.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby Italia1963 » 21 Feb 2012, 00:06

I forgot...in answer to your question on what do you use as proof..

You would attach to your petition, exhibits and these would be original(You can ask the Judge if the court can return the original after the case) of birth, death, marriage or any other document that would show how the names should be spelled.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 21 Feb 2012, 00:48

The action would be the same to amend a NYS document as it is to amend a NYC document. The only difference would be the venue.


It terms of amend BC/DC's NYC, although a part of NYS is another world. In NYC if one has authenticating documentation one can go the thhe correction unit at Worth Street and have amendments made without a court order to BC/DC's. Outshine NYC, a court order is required
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby reboot365 » 21 Feb 2012, 15:09

Thanks for all of the responses.

I have 3 documents that need correcting: GM BC, GM MC, and if it's not too much of a hassle, my GGM DC (but that might be a lost cause of errors).

I'm concerned if I have to submit original documents, which would include my original Italian documents. Do they definitely give them back if you request it? Also, how long does this process take? My appointment is in June, and based on some circumstances that I can't control, I wouldn't be able to file anything until beginning of April.

I'm wondering if I should just apply in NYC and hope for the best, but from what I gather around here I would be rejected immediately. I'm almost thinking I should just make a different appointment now because I'm going to be rejected.
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Re: COURT ORDER OR LETTER FROM JUDGE?

Postby rjnigro » 21 Feb 2012, 17:12

[quoteI'm concerned if I have to submit original documents, which would include my original Italian documents][/quote]

In NYC ... My original documents were viewed, copies kept, originals given back to me. I went in person and had the copies with me. You also need to have documentation showing your relationship. Ex. if you are trying to amend your GF DC, you'll need to have your fathers BC as well as yours
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