Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby erudita74 » 19 Jun 2013, 18:31

This is my understanding of what Sabino has written in Italian. Hopefully I have everything correct.
Erudita

Sabino is telling you that the parents of Aniello Clemente were married after the birth of their first child. The parents contracted marriage on Jan 14, 1874 (unfortunately the act of matrimony is not online), whereas Aniello had been born on Dec 16, 1872 from their natural union. The mother's name was Maria Gaetana on the marriage record, and not Mariangela, which was reported in the margin of his birth record. It seems that, at the time of their marriage, the parents did not know that they were supposed to implement the recognition of their illegitimate son, and so his recognition did not take place until he was required to register for his military obligation, which would have been in 1892, when he was 18 years old. It seems that there were two different acts of recognition in 1892-one by the father who was living in NY and another by the mother who was living in the town. So the mother recognized her son on July 16, 1892, but the father recognized him on Aug 10, 1892. There was also a mistake in the transcription of the “Act of Recognition” which stated that the parents’ marriage had taken place in 1875 when, in fact, it had taken place in 1874. The father’s act of recognition was transcribed on the 21st of Sept 1892 (the date which appears in the margin of Aniello's birth record) and the mother’s on Sept 20th.

According to Sabino, there was a child born to the couple in 1890, but the father was not in Italy at the time of that child’s birth either. Just a note on my part though, which should be obvious-if the child born in 1890 was the child of the same father, then the father had to have been making trips back and forth from NY to the town to have impregnated his wife, even though he may have been back in NY by the time of the actual birth. So, even though they were living apart, Aniello's parents were still very much a married couple. His father had obviously made more than one trip to the U.S., so you should search for him on multiple passenger lists, if you have not already done so.

I hope this info provided to you by Sabino helps to resolve the mystery concerning Aniello's birth.

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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby tikibar22 » 21 Jun 2013, 02:47

Thank you for all who transcribed! What i can tell you, is his father, Vincenzo was in living in NY and routinely traveled between NY and Bagnoli, from 1887 to (To be determined). I cant wait to hear what Sabino has discovered. To my amazement when i came to read the transcription i was very much excited about the "Mystery"...

Grazie All
Krissi

****EDIT*****
I didnt see the interpretation; Thank you very much Erudita, I believe you assumption about the traveling is correct. I also believe he would travel back to Bagnoli to get other men in the family to work in the US. Yes there are other children i have found born 1881 and 1890, both recorded as Vincenzo being the father. Mystery solved! Great work everyone!!

Could someone tell me; is this document a marriage record? If so does it list the parents of Vincenzo and Maria and ages? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-32067-11203-18?cc=2043434&wc=MM1H-F2L:n2050764809
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby adelfio » 21 Jun 2013, 03:15

NO JUST THE MARRIED COUPLE
MARKED RECORD
CLICK FOR RECORD KEEP CLICKING TO ENLARGE

Image

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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby erudita74 » 21 Jun 2013, 13:32

tikibar22 wrote:Thank you for all who transcribed! What i can tell you, is his father, Vincenzo was in living in NY and routinely traveled between NY and Bagnoli, from 1887 to (To be determined). I cant wait to hear what Sabino has discovered. To my amazement when i came to read the transcription i was very much excited about the "Mystery"...

Grazie All
Krissi


Could someone tell me; is this document a marriage record? If so does it list the parents of Vincenzo and Maria and ages? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-32067-11203-18?cc=2043434&wc=MM1H-F2L:n2050764809



Krissi
The two documents are the first and second marriage publications (like the banns of marriage). The actual marriage record is not online. Unfortunately there is limited info in the marriage publications. The first publication is dated Dec 21, 1873. That is the date, a Sunday, that it was posted on the door of the town hall. It remained posted for a week, until Sunday Dec 28th, which is the date of the second publication (the second document on the page). That 2nd publication remained posted for a total of 3 days, so by the following Thurs, there were no publications posted and the couple could then marry at any time. The publications were read aloud to the mostly illiterate population, and posted, to insure there were no objections to the marriage or reasons why it shouldn't take place. The couple could have changed their minds, one of them could have already been married, the male could have been a member of a religious order, had military obligations which he had not fulfilled, etc. Any of these could have constituted a reason why the marriage shouldn't happen. In these publications, you get the parents' names and occupations, but not their ages. Vincenzo Clemente, the groom-to-be, was age 24 and a shoemaker. His father, Antonio Clemente, was a water carrier (viaticale in this record, but also sometimes spelled vaticale); the mother was Maria Antonia Pallante. She was a contadina or peasant/farmer. The bride-to-be was Maria Gaetana Marano, age 25, a contadina or paesant/farmer. Her parents were deceased. The father was Filippo Marano and the mother was Maddalena (I can't decipher her maiden name at the moment). There is no additional info about the parents in these publication records. The last section of the second publication just states that the present register contains 128 acts of publications (for the year 1873) and that the register for 1873 was being closed out by the town official on Jan 1, 1874. So these two marriage publications for Vincenzo and Maria Gaetana were the last two in this town for the year 1873, but there were 128 in total for the entire year in this town.

That's all I can do with this for today.

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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby Sabino » 21 Jun 2013, 14:35

I don't speak english, but :


1) Nei due atti per il riconoscimento ( vedi l'altro link che avevo postato ) si trova come informazioni che Antonio CLEMENTE fu Nino, avevo settantatre anni nel 1892.
Nino = nonno paterno di Vincenzo e bisnonno paterno di Aniello.
Antonio = padre di Vincenzo e nonno paterno di Aniello.


2) Ringrazio Erudita per la parte inglese ma non è quando Vincenzo CLEMENTE aveva 18 anni che il riconoscimento è stato fatto dai genitori ma quando Vincenzo fu chiamato a l'esame definitivo del consiglio di leva, nel 20° anno ( esame fisico, decisione del consiglio, assegnazione alla categoria ) che era il vero reclutamento.
Aniello CLEMENTE è nato il 16-12-1872 e sicuramente era davanti al consiglio di leva durante la sessione di giugno o luglio 1892.
Penso che Vincenzo aveva richiesto il passagio in 3 ° categoria perché in questo caso si doveva presentare documenti e secondo i casi di giustificazione familiare anche copia dell'atto di riconoscimento quindi questo spiega perché i genitori avevano fatto il riconoscimento il 16-07-1892 e il 20-09-1892.
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby Sabino » 21 Jun 2013, 15:07

Scusate mi sono sbagliato di nomi, volevo scrivere Aniello non Vincenzo

=

2) Ringrazio Erudita per la parte inglese ma non è quando Aniello CLEMENTE aveva 18 anni che il riconoscimento è stato fatto dai genitori ma quando Aniello fu chiamato a l'esame definitivo del consiglio di leva, nel 20° anno ( esame fisico, decisione del consiglio, assegnazione alla categoria ) che era il vero reclutamento.
Aniello CLEMENTE è nato il 16-12-1872 e sicuramente era davanti al consiglio di leva durante la sessione di giugno o luglio 1892.
Penso che Aniello aveva richiesto il passagio in 3 ° categoria perché in questo caso si doveva presentare documenti e secondo i casi di giustificazione familiare anche copia dell'atto di riconoscimento quindi questo spiega perché i genitori avevano fatto il riconoscimento il 16-07-1892 e il 20-09-1892.
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby erudita74 » 22 Jun 2013, 08:22

Sabino
Si, Aniello Clemente aveva 20 anni e non 18 anni nell'anno 1892.

"Nino = nonno paterno di Vincenzo e bisnonno paterno di Aniello."

Non vedo negli atti di ricognizione dove si trova il nome del bisnonno paterno di Aniello Clemente, che tu leggi come "Nino." Dopo l'eta` (settantatre) del nonno Antonio, vedo la parola "facchino," il mestiere "porter" in inglese.

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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby Sabino » 22 Jun 2013, 09:23

Ciao Erudita,

Grazie per la correzione.

Hai ragione è scritto facchino non fu Nino.

Ho letto N per CH.

La parte in questione : "...è comparso Antonio Clemente di anni settantatre fac-

chino, domiciliato..."

In ogni caso l'età si trova.

Ti ringrazio ancora.
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby Sabino » 22 Jun 2013, 09:51

altra cosa :

Se fossi Krissi, in primo luogo, chiederei all'Archivio di Stato di Avellino l'esito di leva ( liste di estrazione di leva ) di Aniello CLEMENTE di Vincenzo nato il 16-12-1872 a Bagnoli Irpino.
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby Sabino » 22 Jun 2013, 20:44

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/442/arxg.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/6/0xgc.jpg/

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/12/hqsq.jpg/

Per far capire che una rapidità nella lettura dà una cattiva impressione.



N.B.
Quando scrivo : " i don't speak english " questo non significa che non capisco che cosa la gente scrive negli altri posti di questo forum.
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Re: Birth Record Translation: Aniello Clemente

Postby tikibar22 » 25 Jun 2013, 16:16

erudita74 wrote:
tikibar22 wrote:Thank you for all who transcribed! What i can tell you, is his father, Vincenzo was in living in NY and routinely traveled between NY and Bagnoli, from 1887 to (To be determined). I cant wait to hear what Sabino has discovered. To my amazement when i came to read the transcription i was very much excited about the "Mystery"...

Grazie All
Krissi


Could someone tell me; is this document a marriage record? If so does it list the parents of Vincenzo and Maria and ages? https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1961-32067-11203-18?cc=2043434&wc=MM1H-F2L:n2050764809



Krissi
The two documents are the first and second marriage publications (like the banns of marriage). The actual marriage record is not online. Unfortunately there is limited info in the marriage publications. The first publication is dated Dec 21, 1873. That is the date, a Sunday, that it was posted on the door of the town hall. It remained posted for a week, until Sunday Dec 28th, which is the date of the second publication (the second document on the page). That 2nd publication remained posted for a total of 3 days, so by the following Thurs, there were no publications posted and the couple could then marry at any time. The publications were read aloud to the mostly illiterate population, and posted, to insure there were no objections to the marriage or reasons why it shouldn't take place. The couple could have changed their minds, one of them could have already been married, the male could have been a member of a religious order, had military obligations which he had not fulfilled, etc. Any of these could have constituted a reason why the marriage shouldn't happen. In these publications, you get the parents' names and occupations, but not their ages. Vincenzo Clemente, the groom-to-be, was age 24 and a shoemaker. His father, Antonio Clemente, was a water carrier (viaticale in this record, but also sometimes spelled vaticale); the mother was Maria Antonia Pallante. She was a contadina or peasant/farmer. The bride-to-be was Maria Gaetana Marano, age 25, a contadina or paesant/farmer. Her parents were deceased. The father was Filippo Marano and the mother was Maddalena (I can't decipher her maiden name at the moment). There is no additional info about the parents in these publication records. The last section of the second publication just states that the present register contains 128 acts of publications (for the year 1873) and that the register for 1873 was being closed out by the town official on Jan 1, 1874. So these two marriage publications for Vincenzo and Maria Gaetana were the last two in this town for the year 1873, but there were 128 in total for the entire year in this town.

That's all I can do with this for today.

Erudita



Erudita that is exactly the info i was trying to obtain! thanks so much, i find it extremely difficult to read the script i am very thankful to have everyones help on this great board!
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