If naturalized before July 1, 1912

[CalamariGirl]

Hello,

I just got back from my "jure sanguinis" Italian Citizenship appointment at the New York Consulate. My case was very complicated as my Great Great grandfather was the last person born in Italy. He was naturalized in 1899.

Short story boring - I had never heard of a law stating that Citizenship can not be passed down from anybody naturalized before July 1, 1912. Is anybody familiar with this law?

thanks in advance for the replies!

[johnnyonthespot]

Italian law changed on that date in a very important way:

Prior to that date, when a native-born Italian (your great great grandfather) naturalized in another country, he gave up not only his own Italian citizenship but also that of all of his minor children, regardless of where they were born.

On or after that date, only children born in Italy automatically lost their right to Italian citizenship when thier father naturalized; children born in (for example) the US were not affected.

This is interesting - for at least a few years it has been widely claimed that only the San Francisco consulate was aware of / enforced this rule...

[CalamariGirl]

ah. i see. Thank you very much for your reply. I appreciate it.

I think the man was fed up because my case was so complicated. He pulled out that piece of information at the VERY end of the 'interview'.

[CowryShells]

So sorry that you learned this at your appointment, and at the end of the appointment, no less.

The law is so complicated. This site has a fairly good summary of jure sanguinis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_nationality_law
But Johnny gave an excellent explanation for your situation.

Do you plan to live in Italy? There are other options for citizenship you could explore.

[CalamariGirl]

Thank you. I will check out that link.

I wanted to live in Italy, yes. I don't speak Italian and I have a college degree. I've worked as an administrative assistant for the past 10 years or so. So I have no special skills. I tried to live in England and they wouldn't give me a visa. So I'm not sure if I can live anywhere else in Europe with the 'skills' that I have. If you are aware of other citizenship options I might have please do tell.

[johnnyonthespot]

Any Irish blood on either side of the family?

[CalamariGirl]

yes. My Great Great Grandfather was born in Ireland in 1854. His mother was Irish. His father was English. Still trying to locate his birth record and death record.

[johnnyonthespot]

I am not entirely clear on the rules, but Ireland has a dual citizenship program similar (and in many ways, easier) to Italy's. Irish citizenship = European Union citizenship, so...

http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=267

Honestly, though - I am not sure you can go back to great-great's

[johnnyonthespot]

Also, just to be clear: the next person in your lineage (your great great grandfather's son?) was born in the US and still a minor in 1899 when his father naturalized?

[CalamariGirl]

yes. the next person in my lineage was born in 1888 in New York City. He would have been a minor (11 years) when the Great Great GF became a citizen.

I looked at Ireland. I don't think they let you go back that far. But I'll look again, maybe the rules have changed. you never know...

Thanks again for all of your input. I really appreciate it!

[CowryShells]

There is a longer route, by establishing residency in Italy, and here I get into an area where I am unfamiliar. I have just seen it discussed:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... ncy#p53335

This is page 1 of the above thread:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... +residency

[johnnyonthespot]

There is a longer route, by establishing residency in Italy, and here I get into an area where I am unfamiliar. I have just seen it discussed:
http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/vie ... ncy#p53335

For persons of Italian descent up to the 2nd degree, reside legally in Italy for three years and can apply for naturalization at the end of that period.

Problems:

1) "Up to 2nd degree" means you can only reach back as far as a grandparent. CalamariGirl has to go back two more degrees to reach an Italian ancestor.

2) "Reside legally" means just that. For most people, that means living in Italy a full three years while performing no work whatsoever and earning no income. The only way to legally earn income during this period would be to enter on a student visa which would permit working up to 20 hours per week. Otherwise, an Elective Residence visa would be required; to obtain one she would have to prove sufficient resources (cash in bank, social security, etc), proof of health insurance, and a pre-arranged place to live.

[CalamariGirl]

OY! I am starting to think that this just wasn't meant to be. For a while there was hope, but at this point it has gotten too complicated unless another door opens. I thank you both for your replies. If you think of any other avenues I might try, I'd love to hear your suggestions. I wish I would have known about that 1912 rule last year! Would have saved me a ton of money, stress, effort, etc...

[CowryShells]

The Irish citizenship through a great grandparent was proposed just last year:

"This new proposal to allow Americans whose nearest Irish ancestor is a great-grandparent to qualify for citizenship, provided that they have spent considerable time studying or working in Ireland, will open the possibility of Irish citizen to many people."
http://www.irish-roots.ie/view-details.asp?NewsID=106
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/world ... irish.html

I hope something works out for you soon.

[DeFilippis78]

I am not entirely clear on the rules, but Ireland has a dual citizenship program similar (and in many ways, easier) to Italy's. Irish citizenship = European Union citizenship, so...

http://www.embassyofireland.org/home/index.aspx?id=267

Honestly, though - I am not sure you can go back to great-great's

Do you know if a person is eligible if a great grandparent was born in Ireland?

Alicia