Is junior illegal?
Is junior illegal?
I have been led to believe from postings on this forum that it was illegal to name your son after yourself. I've seen it happen often here in the states with my Italian ancestors but not in Italy. I have attached a birth act (for reference purposes only) that seems to break the law or at least the tradition.
Did my distant ancestor break the law? Was there a penalty imposed for such an action? Does this mean that I am the descendant of a law breaker? Would this make Francesco Jr. an illegal son? Can anyone help me with this dilemma?
Jim
http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx34 ... th1890.jpg
Did my distant ancestor break the law? Was there a penalty imposed for such an action? Does this mean that I am the descendant of a law breaker? Would this make Francesco Jr. an illegal son? Can anyone help me with this dilemma?
Jim
http://i770.photobucket.com/albums/xx34 ... th1890.jpg
Jim
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
Current Italian law enforces strict rules for the naming of children including not naming a child after either of his/her parents, no non-Italian alphabet characters, no non-letter characters, etc. I will find the law and post it here just as soon as possible.
My recollection is that the law is relatively recent. Prior to its implementation, tradition was probably the rule.
My recollection is that the law is relatively recent. Prior to its implementation, tradition was probably the rule.
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Is junior illegal?
Carmine, somehow I knew you would not let me down. So, does this mean that having the record in my possession will not bring the polizia to my door? They will not resurrect my ancestor for contrition acts?
I had actually thought that the law was old and that tradition was the rule today. I'm glad I asked.
Thank you for setting me straight.
Jim
I had actually thought that the law was old and that tradition was the rule today. I'm glad I asked.
Thank you for setting me straight.
Jim
Jim
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
Ha! Check this out: What to name a child? In Italy, a court can decide
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL1845 ... dChannel=0
http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKL1845 ... dChannel=0
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Is junior illegal?
I have seen and heard some ridiculous names here in the states that make the parents come across as loons and the child has to live with it for life. On the other hand, the Italian court sounds overly restrictive as far as naming is concerned.
One would think that some good common sense would play a role in naming your baby, anyways. That is an interesting article.
Jim
One would think that some good common sense would play a role in naming your baby, anyways. That is an interesting article.
Jim
Jim
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
Full text of relevant Italian law: http://www.nomix.it/decreto-legge-396-2000.php
Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8
Summary of law regarding naming of children: http://www.nomix.it/articolo_leggi_10.php
Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8
Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8
Summary of law regarding naming of children: http://www.nomix.it/articolo_leggi_10.php
Google translation of same: http://translate.google.com/translate?u ... 1&ie=utf-8
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Is junior illegal?
These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
My first thought is that Italy is trying hard to hold on to its heritage in any way possible, and forcing the naming of children with traditional Italian nomi is a part of that goal.Squigy wrote:These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?
But, a few Google searches shows that Italy is far from the only country taking this tack:
New Zealand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7522952.stm
France: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 167868.ece
Sweeden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law_in_Sweden
just to name a few.
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Is junior illegal?
I understand that, but I don't think you can force tradition down the throats of citizens.johnnyonthespot wrote:My first thought is that Italy is trying hard to hold on to its heritage in any way possible, and forcing the naming of children with traditional Italian nomi is a part of that goal.Squigy wrote:These laws seem a bit controlling. Why should the government be allowed to tell you what to name your child?
But, a few Google searches shows that Italy is far from the only country taking this tack:
New Zealand: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7522952.stm
France: http://women.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life ... 167868.ece
Sweeden: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_law_in_Sweden
just to name a few.
I think it should be seen as child abuse to name a child something profain, but Friday/Venerdì?
Re: Is junior illegal?
About the "unsual" first names don't forget also our "religious impositions"...
http://www.paginecattoliche.it/modules. ... le&sid=978
Laura
http://www.paginecattoliche.it/modules. ... le&sid=978
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ITA0276/__P2S.HTMI genitori, i padrini e il parroco abbiano cura che non venga imposto ai battezzandi un nome estraneo al senso cristiano (c. 855), e che sia un nome di cui, quanti sono battezzati alla nascita, abbiano poi ad essere soddisfatti.
Today is a little bit different but in the past it could happen that a priest didn't want to "impose" a name different form a Saint's name...Can. 855 - I genitori, i padrini e il parroco abbiano cura che non venga imposto un nome estraneo al senso cristiano.
Laura
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
Just to muddy the waters a bit regarding the business of "Junior" -
I am a Jr, being the only one of my parent's seven children (all boys!) to get a traditional Italian name. The story I was told is that the doctor and nurses all told my mother, "Surely this one will be a girl!" (I am the fourth/middle child) and thus my mother had already chosen a girl's name. When I was born male, they had to think quickly and I ended up with my father's name, Carmine.
So, anyway, having had my jure sanguinis citizenship application approved nearly two years ago (wow! it's been that long?), I have yet to see anything formal from my ancestral comune. However, my Italian passport shows my Nome/Given Name as "CARMINE" and my Cognome/Surname as "xxxxxxxx JR"
I am a Jr, being the only one of my parent's seven children (all boys!) to get a traditional Italian name. The story I was told is that the doctor and nurses all told my mother, "Surely this one will be a girl!" (I am the fourth/middle child) and thus my mother had already chosen a girl's name. When I was born male, they had to think quickly and I ended up with my father's name, Carmine.
So, anyway, having had my jure sanguinis citizenship application approved nearly two years ago (wow! it's been that long?), I have yet to see anything formal from my ancestral comune. However, my Italian passport shows my Nome/Given Name as "CARMINE" and my Cognome/Surname as "xxxxxxxx JR"
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
Re: Is junior illegal?
Since you were born in U.S., the Italian rules wouldn't apply, would they? You can't change history to satisfy a citizenship request. No "in country" rules were broken. I think you are pretty safe from the name Polizia.
Jim
p.s. I am curious, however, how did the document at the beginning of this thread ever make it through. It sounds like there was scrutiny.
I did consider the fact that someone may have written the wrong given name for the father. I haven't any documents to prove or disprove my theory.
Jim
p.s. I am curious, however, how did the document at the beginning of this thread ever make it through. It sounds like there was scrutiny.
I did consider the fact that someone may have written the wrong given name for the father. I haven't any documents to prove or disprove my theory.
Jim
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
Researching surnames Ianniello, Tamburrino, Mattora/Martora/Mattori & Scialla in Santa Maria Capua Vetere, Caserta, Campania.
- johnnyonthespot
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Re: Is junior illegal?
I agree, however I have seen an occasional thread on other boards wherein a consulate gave an applicant a hard time over suffixes like Jr, II, III, and so on.
Carmine
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!
My hobby is finding things. Having found most of my own, I am happy to help others find theirs. PM me!