Translating a difficult atto
- DonnaPellegrin
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Translating a difficult atto
I found an atto di nascita today on microfilm that really has me confused. My female ancestor presented the baby. The baby was given her surname. There are three lines of writing that I cannot read. I have copied the image below. The lines that I cannot read are the part of the atto where the parents names should be given. Any help would be very much appreciated.
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Donna Pellegrin
Re: Translating a difficult atto
Hi Donna, for help are better all document, but I read something:DonnaPellegrin wrote:I found an atto di nascita today on microfilm that really has me confused. My female ancestor presented the baby. The baby was given her surname. There are three lines of writing that I cannot read. I have copied the image below. The lines that I cannot read are the part of the atto where the parents names should be given. Any help would be very much appreciated.
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..in Comune, la quale mi ha dichiarato che alle ore antimeridiane 3.00 e minuti 10.00, del dì (giorno) 28 del corrente mese, nella casa posta in ..artigianale al numero____ , dalla sua minore con uomo celibe, ............, mi ... al riconoscimento
suanj
- DonnaPellegrin
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Re: Translating a difficult atto
ok Donna
suanj
suanj
Re: Translating a difficult atto
Hi Donna,
I don't know what we would do without Suanj, she has a real talent for reading this old script, even horrible handwriting dosen't stop her.
I am curious, why didn't the government recognize this marriage? Was it during the time where the couple was married in the church and also had to have a civil ceremony for the government to recognize the marriage??
Debbie
I don't know what we would do without Suanj, she has a real talent for reading this old script, even horrible handwriting dosen't stop her.
I am curious, why didn't the government recognize this marriage? Was it during the time where the couple was married in the church and also had to have a civil ceremony for the government to recognize the marriage??
Debbie
Re: Translating a difficult atto
Hi Debbie, I think, just an suggestion, that "dalla sua minore con uomo celibe" meaning from daughter in not legal age(minore= + or - as an teen ager) with an man single status... and for this wedding was necessary a special permission of the Church, the civil authorities and the consent of both parents.... if are not this permission the wedding exist not and are not, also nobody trace... also if possible an secret wedding...only in church and not in Common, but for better explanation is necessary to read all document....VaDeb wrote:Hi Donna,
I don't know what we would do without Suanj, she has a real talent for reading this old script, even horrible handwriting dosen't stop her.
I am curious, why didn't the government recognize this marriage? Was it during the time where the couple was married in the church and also had to have a civil ceremony for the government to recognize the marriage??
Debbie
regards, suanj
- DonnaPellegrin
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Re: Translating a difficult atto
Suanj is my hero. I'm so grateful to have her here.
This birth was in Southern Italy in the years shortly after Italy was unified. According to Trafford Cole's book the state wasn't recognizing church marriages and there was a power struggle for a few years. When I read the atto I assumed that was the reason. But now suanj has given me more to think about. She is the best.
This birth was in Southern Italy in the years shortly after Italy was unified. According to Trafford Cole's book the state wasn't recognizing church marriages and there was a power struggle for a few years. When I read the atto I assumed that was the reason. But now suanj has given me more to think about. She is the best.
Donna Pellegrin
- Maurizio
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Re: Translating a difficult atto
HI.
In my opinion things are more simple. The handwriting is bad, but couldn't the word that Suanj read as "Minore" be instead "Unione"?
That would make much more sense: the sentence "She declared me that [....] from her union with an unmarried man...." should simply mean the child was born out of marriage.
In my experience, in cases like these the usual form referring to the male parent is "born of an unknown father". The fact the priest wrote "an unmarried man" could mean the priest knew the real identity of the father, or at least he was aware of the fact the father was single. So, this so particular annotation could be justified by leaving the chance to later on regularize the situation - after an eventual "shotgun wedding" -, rectifing the baptism act by adding the name of the finally uncovered natural father.
In order to solve the enigma, it would probaly be crucial to make out the following words (between "celibe" and "riconoscimento"), but that goes beyond my reading skills.
Just my two cents.
Ciao,
Maurizio
In my opinion things are more simple. The handwriting is bad, but couldn't the word that Suanj read as "Minore" be instead "Unione"?
That would make much more sense: the sentence "She declared me that [....] from her union with an unmarried man...." should simply mean the child was born out of marriage.
In my experience, in cases like these the usual form referring to the male parent is "born of an unknown father". The fact the priest wrote "an unmarried man" could mean the priest knew the real identity of the father, or at least he was aware of the fact the father was single. So, this so particular annotation could be justified by leaving the chance to later on regularize the situation - after an eventual "shotgun wedding" -, rectifing the baptism act by adding the name of the finally uncovered natural father.
In order to solve the enigma, it would probaly be crucial to make out the following words (between "celibe" and "riconoscimento"), but that goes beyond my reading skills.
Just my two cents.
Ciao,
Maurizio
Re: Translating a difficult atto
Si Maurizio, sicuramente è "unione";Maurizio wrote:HI.
In my opinion things are more simple. The handwriting is bad, but couldn't the word that Suanj read as "Minore" be instead "Unione"?
That would make much more sense: the sentence "She declared me that [....] from her union with an unmarried man...." should simply mean the child was born out of marriage.
In my experience, in cases like these the usual form referring to the male parent is "born of an unknown father". The fact the priest wrote "an unmarried man" could mean the priest knew the real identity of the father, or at least he was aware of the fact the father was single. So, this so particular annotation could be justified by leaving the chance to later on regularize the situation - after an eventual "shotgun wedding" -, rectifing the baptism act by adding the name of the finally uncovered natural father.
In order to solve the enigma, it would probaly be crucial to make out the following words (between "celibe" and "riconoscimento"), but that goes beyond my reading skills.
Just my two cents.
Ciao,
Maurizio
hai gli occhi migliori dei miei!
saluti, suanj
- Maurizio
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Re: Translating a difficult atto
Hello, Suanj *
Mah, in realtàgli occhi non sono un granchè. Però ho degli occhialacci da miope con le lenti spesse che mi aiutano un po'!
Ciao,
Maurizio
* Bello vedere un nickname familiare
Da quando Peter è stato cacciato qui non è più la stessa cosa: tutti molto più educati, per carità, ma... che noia!
Mah, in realtàgli occhi non sono un granchè. Però ho degli occhialacci da miope con le lenti spesse che mi aiutano un po'!
Ciao,
Maurizio
* Bello vedere un nickname familiare
Da quando Peter è stato cacciato qui non è più la stessa cosa: tutti molto più educati, per carità, ma... che noia!
Re: Translating a difficult atto
Ciao Maurizio, anche io porto gli occhiali...Maurizio wrote:Hello, Suanj *
Mah, in realtàgli occhi non sono un granchè. Però ho degli occhialacci da miope con le lenti spesse che mi aiutano un po'!
Ciao,
Maurizio
* Bello vedere un nickname familiare
Da quando Peter è stato cacciato qui non è più la stessa cosa: tutti molto più educati, per carità, ma... che noia!
comunque è piacevole anche per me ritrovarti, e concordo sulla noia... Peter dava quel mordente stuzzichevole che mi piaceva tanto...e mi manca tanto!!
Saluti, suanj