birth ceritificate lost in 1906 earthquake...

[johncrosetti]

well the title says it all... In any case I have a couple of questions to anyone kind enough to give some feedback. I have been searching for records online of my nonna's birth online and there is nothing available, which may be complicated because I have to go through my paternal grandmother for jure sangunis, due to the fact that my grandfather had been naturalized before my Dad was born. So, if the birth certificate had indeed been destroyed due to the fire, what is the best alternative?
Furthermore, I am already in Italy, in Lombardia (Bergamo), and I would like to take care of the process from here, so that I might and stay and work, once I finish my master's program (in June, but my visa is good through August 19th). However, I am just now working with my family back in California to help me get the documents needed in order to apply here. I was also wondering about the best way to verify when my great grandparents (my nonna's parents) were naturalized, as I am not sure how to start the process, because I am in Italy. in any case, any feedback is GREATLY appreciated.

[johnnyonthespot]

Before we go too far here, was your father born on or after January 1, 1948? Prior to that date, Italian citizenship was passed only by the father.

Your grandmother could not pass citizenship to any of her children born before January 1, 1948.

[johnnyonthespot]

1) Lots of people on this forum http://expatsinitaly.com/phpbbforum/index.php can help with info on applying in Italy.

2) If your ancestor naturalized after September 27, 1906, then USCIS is the one place to go for certain to obtain copies of naturalization documents. Start at http://www.uscis.gov/portal/site/uscis/ ... 18190aRCRD and click the "Order Online Now" link at top right. You will need to order an "Index Search" first, wait, wait, receive report, then come back and order a "Records Request" based on the results of the index search.

3) Another option - much faster, much less expensive, but not certain to acutally have records - is the US National Archives. Start here https://eservices.archives.gov/orderonline/ , click Order Reproductions then Immigration & Naturalization Records. When filling in the order form, you may need to put xxxxxx's or 99999's in some fields where you don't have actual info; then use the comment box for additional information.

4) If you would care to share your ancestor's names and birth years, we may be able to locate something for you.

[johncrosetti]

5)Your paternal or maternal grandfather or grandmother was born in the United States, your paternal or maternal great grandfather was born in Italy and was an Italian citizen at the time of your paternal or maternal grandfather’s or grandmother’s birth, neither you nor your father/mother nor your grandfather/grandmother ever renounced your right to Italian citizenship.

Well, you seem to know a lot more about this than I do, so perhaps you can clarify this statement for me, I copy and pasted it directly from the information form that is provided by the San Francisco consulate. So, basically my "paternal grandmother" was born in SF and my paternal great grandfather was born in Italy, I am quite sure he was still a citizen at the time of my grandmother's birth, as she was born shortly after they arrived in the states... so perhaps you can clarify this for me, as it seems to contradict what you have told me. Thank you!!

[johncrosetti]

Thank you so much for the info, Carmine. So, I can tell you (if it even matters, from what you have told me) that the name of my grandmother's father was Marcello Guastavino and that he was born in Liguria in 1873, I am not sure about the date yet. My grandmother was born in SF on Christmas day of 1903, her name was Natalie Domenica Guastavino. I have located records of death certificates online for her, not sure if that will help...In any case I appreciate the feedback

[johnnyonthespot]

John, the question is not when was your grandmother (the female ancestor) born, but when was her child born.

Assuming her father was Italian at the time, your grandmother would have definitely inherited Italian citizenship from him. The problem is that prior to the implementation of Italy's modern, post WWII, constitution, Italian women had very few rights. One of the missing rights was the right to pass citizenship to her children.

So again, to clarify, if your father was born prior to January 1, 1948, then he could not inherit Italian citizenship from his mother. There have been challenges in the Italian courts on this issue, but they are very narrowly defined and do not set precedent as court cases would in the US.

From the San Francisco site:

GENERAL INFORMATION

Italian citizenship is based on the principle of ius sanguinis (blood right) by which a child born of an Italian father or mother is Italian; nevertheless, it must be kept in mind that the mother citizen has only transmitted citizenship to minor children since January 1st 1948 as a result of a ruling by the Constitutional Court.

http://www.conssanfrancisco.esteri.it/C ... tadinanza/

By the way, I forgot to mention that one of our forum members, "kontessa", went through the entire jure sanguinis process while residing in Italy. You may want to seek her out for guidance.

[johnnyonthespot]

John, how long have you been in Italy?

Can you manage to stretch your stay there - legally - to a minimum of three years?

If so, you might be able to apply for citizenship through naturalization if you can show that you had an Italian ancestor "up to the 2nd degree" (grandparent). This would work regardless of when your grandparent naturalized or otherwise lost his Italian citizenship.

In almost every respect, naturalization will get you the same benefits as jure sanguinis. The primary differences: 1) if you have adult children, they would not be able to gain citizenship through you as they would in a jure sanguinis case, and 2) your naturalization application could be denied if you have a significant criminal history.

[johncrosetti]

Thank you, for your speedy response, I really appreciate it. My progam ends in June and I have a valid visa through August. My girlfriend lives in Sicily and she said I can remain with her after I finish, however as you say I want to remain here legally, but I am not sure what steps I should take. Again, thank you for your feedback!!!

[johnnyonthespot]

Thank you, for your speedy response, I really appreciate it. My progam ends in June and I have a valid visa through August. My girlfriend lives in Sicily and she said I can remain with her after I finish, however as you say I want to remain here legally, but I am not sure what steps I should take. Again, thank you for your feedback!!!

The folks at the other site I linked above may be able to offer some guidance so give them a try.

You must maintain legal residency if you have any hope of ever applying for citizenship through naturalization.

If you would care to share other details of your ancestry, we may see a path that it not entirely obvious.

[johnnyonthespot]

John, is your mother's side Italian? Perhaps Irish?

Also, I presume you are absolutely positive concerning your paternal grandfather's naturalization date? Until you have seen a document, you cannot be certain, as oral history often turns out to be inaccurate...

[johncrosetti]

my mom's side is a huge mix, however there is Irish, dutch,, english, welsh. Concerning my paternal grandfather, I am not sure what good this will do, however here is some information. His name was Attilio Crosetti born on February 4, 1896 in Carrega Liguria. I believe he first arrived in America sometime around 1910, although that is a guess. He ended up in San Francisco, and died some time around 1950. Not sure what good this will do, and to be honest I have essentially lost all hope, but if this information is of any use, and you can help any more than you already have, I am of course grateful. Thanks!

[johnnyonthespot]

John,

My favorite nightclub bartender in Fort Lauderdale in the late 1970's was a guy named John Crosetti...

So, I have found several documents of interest from a genealogical research point of view; unfortunately, they bear out the fact that the path to jure sanguinis citizenship seems closed for you.

Click the thumbnails once to enlarge, then click again for maximum magnification.

Attilio first arrived in the US April 17, 1912 (Line 25):





His 1918 WWI draft registration:



He returned to Italy at some point and came back to the US on October 7, 1929 with wife Natalie and his mother, Margherita (Lines 18, 19, 20). Note that by this pointt, both Attilio and Natalie are traveling on US passports:





1930 US Census. No children yet, but Margherita lives with Attilio and Natalie:



California death index records for Attilio and Natalie:

California Death Index, 1940-1997 about Attilio Crosetti
Name: Attilio Crosetti
Social Security #: 561420942
Sex: Male
Birth Date: 4 Feb 1895
Birthplace: Other Country
Death Date: 24 Jan 1956
Death Place: San Mateo
Mother's Maiden Name: Spinetta
Father's Surname: Crosetti


California Death Index, 1940-1997 about Natalie D Crosetti
Name: Natalie D Crosetti
[Natalie D Guastavino]
Social Security #: 570627077
Sex: Female
Birth Date: 25 Dec 1903
Birthplace: California
Death Date: 18 Dec 1995
Death Place: San Francisco
Mother's Maiden Name: Bruzzone
Father's Surname: Guastavino



Finally, your grandmother's sister, perhaps?

California Birth Index, 1905-1995 about Eda K Guastavino
Name: Eda K Guastavino
Birth Date: 1 Sep 1906
Gender: Female
Mother's Maiden Name: Bruzzori
Birth County: San Francisco

[johnnyonthespot]

Probable, but not enough info to say with certainty:

U.S. Naturalization Record Indexes, 1791-1992 (Indexed in World Archives Project) about Attilie Crosetti
Name: Attilie Crosetti
Birth Place: Italy
Court District: California
Date of Action: 8 Oct 1918

[johnnyonthespot]

Regarding Irish citizenship - I am not entirely up on the details, however I believe that if your mother is still living and had an Irish citizen parent (or grandparent?), then she can claim Irish citizenship and - I think - you could then claim citizenship through her.

Irish citizenship = EU citizenship = the right to live and work in Italy (with constraints...).

http://www.dfa.ie/home/index.aspx?id=267

http://www.movetoireland.com/movepag/pascitzn.htm

http://www.irishclub.org/citizenship.htm