When Do Docs Need to Be "Authenticated" By Other Consulates?

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

I'm applying for Jure Sanguinis via Grandfather(citizen) - Mother - Me, at the Los Angeles Consulate. I read here in another post that a woman recently applied in LA, and that all the documents she presented which originated OUTSIDE of the LA jurisdiction - needed to be "authenticated" by an Italian Consulate back at the location of origin ! But...isn't that what an apostille is supposed to be for?

Surprisingly, there is NO mention of this additional, "minor" step anywhere in the instructions on the LA Consulate website, or on any other Consulate website, for that matter. I've found that in general, the LA website instructions in are not clear nor comprehensive enough for such a formal and important legal process. It is very frustrating.

Can somebody else please confirm that this "authentication" step is always a requirement? If so, I'd prefer to have this done BEFORE I arrive for my appointment - rather than after.

Thanks,
Dennis
San Diego, CA

[jennabet]

No, I don't think it's always required. Perhaps it's used when divorce or remarriage due to the death of a spouse occurs in the lineage.

[JJ313]

This seems to be a fairly new requirement for those applying within the last few months. It applies to all documents that come from outside the jurisdiction of the consulate to which you are applying (BC, MC and DC). This is in addition to the apostille and apparently serves to provide a certification by the consulate of the translation in addition to insuring that the documents are not forged (oh and they charge you for this service) . Dennis you are correct, most consulates do not mention this new step and their lack of instructions or list of procedures really do not make the process user friendly. Between this forum and the others that are out there we are able to piece it together and share experiences. I would not have been able to get my documents authenticated without the help and assistance of this board. So if I can help a few people with what I've learned all the better.

Depending on how many documents you need to have authenticated you may want to wait and see exactly which ones they require as there is a fee of 6.2 euros per document.

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

JJ: Your take on this coincides with mine. We both agree that the process has seemed to change over the past few months, and that the instructions provided by the consulates are NOT comprehensive, nor user friendly. Not to be stereotypical, but isn't Italy world famous for its lumbering and inefficient bureaucracy?

There are a few approaches that I can possibly take, and here is where I need some guidance.

Method #1: I can go in fully prepared with what I have right now, and wait for the consulate to tell me this and that document will need to be corrected and/or authenticated. It is a potentially expensive way, for any name changes that are made to a document will require yet another translation and a new apostille! By the way, is anybody else as angered as I that CT charges $50 for EACH apostille issued? Other states are $5 to $20 each...what's up with ripoff CT?

Method #2: I can try and get as many name corrections done in advance as possible. Once I'm confident of a document, I can have it translated, apostilled and authenticated in advance. This might save me some time later on.

Another possibility is to not spend any money on translations, authentications or apostilles right now, and just show my original documents to the Consulate for their assessment. If they have no issue with this pay-as-you-go approach, I will spend the least money on services that ultimately might have to be redone. My only fear is that doing it this way might irritate the Consulate, since I'm basically showing up without all the docs they formally require for the interview.

If these folks were easier to communicate with, all this could be cleared up with a 5 minute phone call or a few emails. I'd just proceed according to their advice on my particular case. Getting an email answered takes forever, and telephone conversations are equally hard to obtain. I can see that I'm going to need a LOT of patience to get through this mess!

Advice, anyone?

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

JJ313: One additional question. What is the order in which services should be applied to an out-of-jurisdiction document?

Is it translate-apostille (minus the translation)-authentication (seems most logical), or
translate-authentication-apostille (minus translate and auth.)?

I'm not sure if authentication requires an apostille attached first or not. Just exctly what it is the authentication process - a seal or stamp placed on the original document, or do they permanently affix an additional document to the original, much like the apostille?

Depending on what the order of this process is, it could run some big money on apostilles, since CT charges "just" $50 per page!

Thanks,
Dennis

[johnnyonthespot]

By the way, is anybody else as angered as I that CT charges $50 for EACH apostille issued? Other states are $5 to $20 each...what's up with ripoff CT?

I believe the current fee is actually $40 per document plus, if desired a $50 per document charge for expedited service. See the very last paragraph of http://www.sots.ct.gov/sots/lib/sots/co ... hedule.pdf

Having said that...

You're damned right we're angry!

Connecticut doubled the state fees for hundreds of services a few years ago causing a huge ruckus. Some of them were beaten back by public uproar - fish & game licenses, entry fees for state parks, and a few others. But the majority stayed in place. I thought $20 per document was a high price back in 2008 when I was processing my own application and was thankful that only two of my documents originated here in Connecticut (others from New York, New Jersey, and Florida). I feel really bad for anyone who has a large number of Connecticut documents requiring apostilles at today's prices.

For that matter, I feel pretty bad about the property tax rate here in Waterbury, CT, the state income tax rate, rampant corruption in state and local government, the incredibly high cost of health insurance, the 2nd highest electricity cost in the nation, and on and on. I don't even know why we are still here.

[JJ313]

It is difficult to give you an answer as to which approach to take without knowing all the details about the discrepancies in your documents. Each consulate treats discrepancies differently and the good news is you are not applying in NY. The general answer would be to amend all required documents before apostille and translation. Before doing any amendments I would investigate whether your discrepancies are in fact discrepancies (post your details, look at other people's experiences on this and other boards, talk to the impossible to reach consulate ) so that you do not waste a lot of time and money.

The order of services prior to authentication does not matter. You can translate then apostille or do it the other way around. What is needed is that you send the apostilled and translated document to the consulate.

The consulate will then affix your translation to the apostilled document (Newark puts it on top, NY on the back. They both will "dog ear" the upper left hand corner and affix the consulate stamp so that it appears on both pages. They will also stamp and apply a receipt for the fee to the translation and a statement that it is accurate. The receipt has your name listed on it.

[jennabet]

.....For that matter, I feel pretty bad about the property tax rate here in Waterbury, CT, the state income tax rate, rampant corruption in state and local government, the incredibly high cost of health insurance, the 2nd highest electricity cost in the nation, and on and on. I don't even know why we are still here.Carmine.....

All good reasons to move to Italy.

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Well Johnny, I feel your pain. I own property in Bristol and the yearly tax is INSANE. I think that CT charging $40 per apostille is also OUTRAGEOUS. Unfortunately, all but one of my docs comes from there. MA is the other and it is $10 per apostille! I also had to pay $20 for copies of original certs in Bristol, when most other towns charge $10.

Things aren't much better out here in CA. We have a sales tax that is 9.75% in greater San Diego...I kid you not! Our roads are literally crumbling and there are police and firemen earning $275k per year with overtime (its documented) and a clerk with the city retires and gets a $100k pension after 20 years of filing papers. Closed-door meetings between sports team owners and the city yielded a "occupied seat" guarantee for the Padres. If they suck and nobody goes to watch them, WE the taxpayers pay the Padres for the unfilled seats. No...I'm not kidding about that one, either.

Is Italy like this? I dont know, but its worth living there for a while to see if they have more control over their governments than we do here.

[jennabet]

Jobs in Italy are not easy to come by but if you're retired or close to hit, just think about how much could you save if you didn't need to maintain a car and pay for gas and auto insurance in addition to not paying for health insurance. These two expenditures alone more than offset the Euro/Dollar exchange rate. Electricity, gas, phone, internet, garbage, household goods, food (don't go by what you pay as a tourist) all cost less in Italy too. There is just no way the cost of living in Italy is on a par with the US. You will come out ahead in Italy and have better health, lifestyle and quality of life.

[AlfaRomeo4Ever]

Jennabet:

I assume you are living in Italy now? What part? From where in the USA did you move, and how long have you been there?

Yes, I am in my mid-late 50's and am already in semi-retirement mode after owning a good business for the last 20 years. I don't think I'd even want to work in Italy, as that would cut into my leisure time(!) - but my wife might want to; she is 8 years younger than I.

So far as having no car goes...no way for me! Just look at my user name! My lifelong desire has been to drive an old vintage Alfa Romeo spider from one end of Italy to the other - to really see the country. There was a TV series on PBS where a man from Venezia did just that. It would be the greatest adventure of my life, and I'm steadily making my way toward living that dream.

Now, if the US dollar would gain some steam against the Euro, that would make living there all the more joyous. It is an embarassment to America that our currency has become so worthless that we cant even maintain parity with the Euro. But, this could change soon as the EU goes through its own economic upheavals.

Ciao,
-Dennis

[jennabet]

Ciao Dennis. I was recognized in 2001 and moved to Italy same year. I lived in my ancestral homeland in Central Italy on the Adriatic Coast (Region of Abruzzo). I stayed there until late 2009 when I returned to the States to help my fiancee get his own passport. He is newly retired and was just recognized as a citizen and we are headed back together to the same region. But I'm glad I had some time to spend back here in the US because I really noticed, having been gone for almost ten years, that it hadn't got any better, in fact it got worse. And I thought it was bad in 2001. Basically back then I was just tired of all the rules, regulations, silly, petty laws, neighbors not minding their own business, lawsuits out the wazoo, etc. I thought, "there has to be a less complicated way". When I got over to Italy and saw kids riding their bicycles without a helmet I thought, "yeah, THEY have freedom".

[kontessa]

@Alpha - do some additional research about the actual cost of living in Italy. Prices can vary by region. There are a number of individuals that post on expatsinitaly.com, living in a variety of different regions and with varying opinions about what it really costs to live in Italy. Sorry to respectfully disagree with the other poster, but it's not always cheaper than the US.

I lived in Lazio for over 9 years, and found that utilities were much higher than in the US, but food items cheaper. Do some reading on health care as well, as it isn't always free, especially if you aren't Italian, or haven't worked in Italy and contributed to the system.

Hope you and your dream-car make it from one end of the boot to the other. Buon viaggio!

[jennabet]

Anyone living LEGALLY in Italy (citizen or non citizen) and who has established legal residency within their Comune goes AUTOMATICALLY onto the national healthcare roll, whether or not he chooses to use it. However, if you break your leg and need an ambulance, don't even THINK that the Italian system is going to burden itself with paperwork in order to bill your own special, private American insurance company because it won't happen. The national healthcare system in Italy and the European Union is socialized medicine and it's free. If you don't have access to socialized medicine, then you are in Italy illegally and will be deported. It's as simple as that.

[jennabet]

.....Do some reading on health care as well, as it isn't always free, especially if you aren't Italian, or haven't worked in Italy and contributed to the system.....

This is total and complete nonsense. There is absolutely NO requirement for legal residents to have worked in Italy and contributed in order to access socialized medicine. Again total nonsense from someone who obviously was never a LEGAL resident.