NY and NJ - warning

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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jacobarber
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by jacobarber » 08 Jun 2010, 15:12

NYS DoH website says even a spouse will need a court order.

Depending on which Consulate you go to, their requirements may be a bit different. The San Francisco Consulate requires only photocopies of non-bloodline family member's birth certs. So you would only need a photocopy of your grandfather's BC in San Fran. I don't know if your consulate is the same though.

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by MST995 » 08 Jun 2010, 15:55

Thanks, I'm in NY state so I'll be going to NY consulate. I think a copy should suffice there as well, and if not it's not the end of the world. Thanks!

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by jacobarber » 08 Jun 2010, 16:56

I think the NY consulate requires certified copies. I don't think they like to accept original certificates, but I may be very wrong. You'd still need the apostille and translation at least.

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by johnnyonthespot » 08 Jun 2010, 17:13

Although it seems that all consulate websites say that documents are required for persons not in the direct line, many of those same consulates never actually take nor even look at them. In point of fact, a reading of the Italian law concerning jure sanguinis citizenship seems to be quite clear that only direct-line documents should be needed.

When I submitted in NYC in mid-2008 using myself -> US born father -> Italy born grandfather, I did not have to show my mother's birth certificate nor my grandmother's birth/death certificates.
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by jacobarber » 08 Jun 2010, 17:34

Crazy. I suppose that the requirements on their websites are basically worst-case scenarios for strictness

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by rgaetano » 13 Jul 2010, 04:41

I still can't believe have crazy NYS is about this.....

Has anyone had any luck going to a small town clerk/court where they don't follow these strict rules? I'm declaring citizenship through my GGF. My GGF/GF have death/birth certificates in a small town in upstate ny. I'm planning on going there in person and seeing what they can do for me. Do you think it' would be best to "play dumb" and just see if they give them to me? I've read that some people think smaller towns are less likely to be strict about this but I haven't heard anyone with a success story.

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by kontessa » 13 Jul 2010, 08:57

You could travel to that small town in upstate NY and request long-form certified copies of the records that you need, but I wouldn't bank on them issuing them out of ignorance. Then again, strange things happen in NYS all the time! MAYBE you could squeak a certified death record out of one of the clerks, but a birth record? I've read on forums of people ordering records from Vital Chek in a deceased person's name, and being successful.

If you get no results from your venture into the wilds of upstate, you're left with having to pursue a court order. Costly, but effective. Lots of info on having it done on the forums. (Tip: review genealogical copies first to make sure that all corrections that CAN be made are complete before you pay for certified copies of records.)

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by johnnyonthespot » 13 Jul 2010, 11:42

rgaetano wrote:I still can't believe have crazy NYS is about this.....

Has anyone had any luck going to a small town clerk/court where they don't follow these strict rules? I'm declaring citizenship through my GGF. My GGF/GF have death/birth certificates in a small town in upstate ny. I'm planning on going there in person and seeing what they can do for me. Do you think it' would be best to "play dumb" and just see if they give them to me? I've read that some people think smaller towns are less likely to be strict about this but I haven't heard anyone with a success story.
I tried that a few years ago; didn't work. It is certainly worth a shot however, and I would most definitely play dumb; just walk in and say ,"Hi, I need a couple of certified long-form birth and death certificates, please." and see what happens.

Not sure about this, but I think I have read that under recent changes in New York, local clerk's offices cannot issue long-form certified transcripts any longer at all.
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by rgaetano » 13 Jul 2010, 13:41

jacobarber wrote:I think this needs some clarification.

The process to get marriage, divorce, etc. certs has been made much easier. Fill out a few forms, send your money in with proper ID and you're good to go.
What forms are you referring to? Are you talking about vital check? On vital check website, for marriage (and death) it still states that you need:

documented lawful right or claim
documented medical need
New York State Court Order

How do you prove "documented lawful right or claim" since it is listed as something different than a NYS Court Order? In my opinion, shouldn't we all have a "lawful right or claim" to our family's records just by blood alone?



Also - thanks johnnyonthespot and kontessa - I think I will give it a try going in and playing dumb. I will be going next week, and I will let you know how it goes. But since it is a 2-3 hour trip from me, I think I should be prepared to file or request for judicial intervention. I've been using the search for a while now, but searching for "NYS court order/judicial intervention" yields tons of pages without any luck.

Can someone show me a post that describes the process or give me a rundown of how it works? Is it a one time thing, ie file the form, and then wait months (since the court will be 2-3 hours away from my home)? Or I am required to show up in person more than once?

I've found this document http://www.nycourts.gov/forms/rji/rji2000.pdf
is this all I would need to bring to file an RJI?

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by Violam » 13 Jul 2010, 23:12

This is something else. I just now was on the floor going over gen papers, and came across a form that states you have to be a direct blood line to get copies. Are you talking about N.Y.C.? Cause just 2 years ago, I sent a request in for my Grandparents death cert. I sent them the money and they sent me them..with no problems. The info I wanted was for up state, the Troy area..sorry ur having such a hard time, it just shouldnt be that way. Oh there is a lone on the form that asks why you want them, I just said I was the grandaughter n it was for my Genealogy.
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by Tonio70 » 13 Jul 2010, 23:43

I have ordered every single document from NYC records except for GGF birth certificate and NYC has returned all requests with original documents. All the documents I ordered are for ancestors who are deceased and there have been no problems. I have been reading that individuals are having a difficult time ordering birth and death certificates and I am baffled. My best advice is order the documents directly from the Court themselves, do not use Vital Check, it appears that the requirements to get those documents are more stringent. I ordered all documents directlyfrom the Courts, included correct fees, added my photo ID and a letter detailing why I am ordering the documents and I had no issues. If anyone needs addresses and phone numbers I can provide both, just reply and I will assist you as much as possible.

Ciao Antonio

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by johnnyonthespot » 14 Jul 2010, 00:01

Tonio70 wrote:I have ordered every single document from NYC records except for GGF birth certificate and NYC has returned all requests with original documents. All the documents I ordered are for ancestors who are deceased and there have been no problems. I have been reading that individuals are having a difficult time ordering birth and death certificates and I am baffled. My best advice is order the documents directly from the Court themselves, do not use Vital Check, it appears that the requirements to get those documents are more stringent. I ordered all documents directlyfrom the Courts, included correct fees, added my photo ID and a letter detailing why I am ordering the documents and I had no issues. If anyone needs addresses and phone numbers I can provide both, just reply and I will assist you as much as possible.

Ciao Antonio
The rules are different for certified vs. uncertified ("For Genealogical Use Only") copies. Perhaps this explains the ease with which you got your documents?
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by Tonio70 » 14 Jul 2010, 00:13

I am applying for Citizenship and I was able to obtain all these documents certified, long form. I would say if the person is doing this just for For Genealogical Use Only, then ordered certified copies as if they were applying for citizenship.

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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by Violam » 14 Jul 2010, 00:59

Oh...all my copies have a 'seal' on them..what makes them 'certified'?
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Re: NY and NJ - warning

Post by Tonio70 » 14 Jul 2010, 01:05

All my documents fron NYC have a Letter of Explemification on them stating they are a true copy of the said original record. Maybe I am have not read the replies correctly, are you doing this for research or citizenship? Also, do you have copies of the documents and are trying to obtain certified copies? Sorry for the confusion on my part and/or adding to the confusion.

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