Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
stellarossi22
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 22 Apr 2018, 11:07

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by stellarossi22 » 22 Apr 2018, 11:48

Hello,

My paternal great-great grandfather immigrated from Italy in 1907 and was naturalized after 1920 (I cannot find any records of his naturalization, except the census states: Alien in 1910, PA/Papers Submitted in 1920, and by 1930 census = Naturalized). My great grandfather (his son), was born in USA in 1909, therefore gaining right by birth before naturalization; (correct?). His son (my grandfather) was born in 1937, my father in 1957, and I in 1984. My great-grand father did not pass until 1987, which would be after I was born as well, if that makes a difference.

Now if citizenship was rightfully my great grandfathers in 1909 due to my great-great grandfather not being naturalized yet, and he, nor my grandfather or father or I renounced citizenship, would that give me eligibility for Italian dual citizenship? I am assuming from reading for the last 5 hours online - that my great-grandfather inherited Italian citizenship by birth due to my great-great grandfather not being naturalized when he was born. This would then pass forward despite the naturalization, because he was born in the USA. Is that correct?

I also have a similar situation occurring on my paternal grandmothers side from Germany, along with my maternal grandfathers side from Ireland.

Any insight you could provide is helpful! If I am eligible to apply, I would like to do so.


Thank you,
S

P.S. My great-great grandfather married the daughter of two Italian born immigrants as well, I would need to look at their naturalization dates for more information, as I'm assuming their citizenship would have passed to her also.

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1376
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by jennabet » 24 Apr 2018, 09:02

Yes, it sounds like you qualify through the ancestor who was your paternal great-great grand-father so I would pursue that line. I would not bother looking into the maternal great-great grandmother's line unless you definitely do not qualify through the paternal line because pursuing citizenship through the maternal line is usually more difficult. I can't help with anything related to German or Irish ancestry.

NickDa
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: 29 Mar 2018, 10:42

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by NickDa » 24 Apr 2018, 13:44

Mine had confused me because of the 1948 rule, the fact my grandmother was minor when my great-grandfather naturalized in 1944, and the fact he filed first papers in 1927 (which I did not know the Italian govt does not recogize), but everything is pretty clear now.

Great-Grandfather > born 1898 > immigrates 1923 > marries 1924 > naturalizes 1944 > dies 1974.
Grandmother > born 1937 > constitutional change of 1948 so she can pass citizenship after this year > marries 1957 (still alive).
Mother > born 1961 > marries 1985 > divorces 1993 (still alive).
Myself > born 1985.

NickDa
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 5
Joined: 29 Mar 2018, 10:42

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by NickDa » 24 Apr 2018, 13:48

Mine had confused me because of the 1948 rule, the fact my grandmother was minor when my great-grandfather naturalized in 1944, and the fact he filed first papers in 1927 (which I did not know the Italian govt does not recogize), but everything is pretty clear now.

From an earlier post on my line:
Great-Grandfather > born 1898 > immigrates 1923 > marries 1924 > naturalizes 1944 > dies 1974.
Grandmother > born 1937 > constitutional change of 1948 so she can pass citizenship after this year > marries 1957 (still alive).
Mother > born 1961 > marries 1985 > divorces 1993 (still alive).
Myself > born 1985.

Italiaup
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 39
Joined: 13 May 2018, 22:34

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by Italiaup » 13 May 2018, 23:01

I am sorry if this was asked and answered before, I tried to find a similar situation but couldnt .
My situation is that my Grandfather was born in Italy in 1875. He immigrated to US in 1894. Received "no Naturalization papers found" by USCIS, NARA, Michigan Archives and Wisconsin Archives(only two places lived was Wisconsin and Michigan).
My question is would the Consulate request a census record also? The problem is that members of the family always said he didn't naturalized but the census directly after my father was born (in 1909), the 1910census has many errors including wrong spelling on last name, my grandmother's name says Anna when her name was Mary and the ages of the children and the names of some of the children are wrong. The census does say NA also. Do you think the Consulate would take the "word" of the inaccurate census record when 4 agencies found no Naturalization records? Thank you

jennabet
Master
Master
Posts: 1376
Joined: 14 Jul 2010, 20:28
Location: Ancestral Homeland - Abruzzo Italy

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by jennabet » 16 May 2018, 20:24

The rule of most consulates is that if you come up empty because you ancestor was never naturalized, you do have to provide the census, but I don't know how it would be interpreted if it's wrong. Some immigrants were known to not be totally honest with their answers, perhaps saying they were naturalized when they actually were not. I would bring the census, explain that it's wrong and hope for the best.

Italiaup
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 39
Joined: 13 May 2018, 22:34

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by Italiaup » 17 May 2018, 20:41

Thanks. I guess all I can do is hope. I have spent months trying to locate something about Naturalization and no luck so I will just make my appointment and hope for the best.

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 2166
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by mler » 17 May 2018, 21:03

I’m not certain of this, but I think census records are not required if you apply in Italy.

mrbjr
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: 17 May 2018, 22:13

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by mrbjr » 17 May 2018, 22:23

I have a case nearly identical to the OP's however for me there is more to the story.

My maternal GGFather and wife both born and married in Italy. They do naturalize in the US, my GMother born in US, and mother born after 1948. Heres where it gets different - After his wife's death he goes back home to Italy, eventually dies there, apparently a well respected and popular fellow - has a statue in his town of him.

Does the fact he went back change canything?

Italiaup
Rookie
Rookie
Posts: 39
Joined: 13 May 2018, 22:34

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by Italiaup » 18 May 2018, 12:08

Thanks Mier. I will check on that. I would gladly go to Italy to apply.

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 2166
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by mler » 18 May 2018, 17:07

mbjr, if your ggf returned to Italy and resided there for many years, he reacquired his Italian citizenship. This, however, would not affect any children who were born before he naturalized and were not minors when he reacquired his citizenship.

User avatar
mler
Master
Master
Posts: 2166
Joined: 01 Apr 2006, 00:00

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by mler » 19 May 2018, 04:04

I’m sorry, that should read “AFTER he naturalized.”

mrbjr
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 2
Joined: 17 May 2018, 22:13

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by mrbjr » 21 May 2018, 02:16

ah i see thanks thats about what I figured. though it is possible my GGF reacquired Italian citizenship while my GM was still a minor (she stayed here in US), if you think that matters I will spend however much time it takes digging out records to determine if timelines match up favorably here.

EDIT: thanks to ancestry.com it was easy to find out - it appears my GGF went back to Italy in 1958, when my GM (US born in 1936 after my GGF had naturalized here in US in 1919 after arriving in 1913) was about 22. so i guess it would appear to be end of the line? seems like not even a 1948 would apply here. thanks all for your time here.

Miapia1
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 25 May 2018, 14:04

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by Miapia1 » 25 May 2018, 14:43

My situation varies slightly from those I've researched so far.

My father was born in Italy in 1951. He later came to the US with his family as a minor where he received a US certificate of citizenship. He was later drafted by the Italian military. At the time if his draft notification he was enlisted in the US air national guard. He requested a draft exemption from Italy due to this fact. In the late 1990's he accepted a position with the US government which required a thorough background check. This background review uncovered that in the eyes of the US he is still an Italian citizen.

My questions revolve around the following two points. I am receiving conflicting information regarding effect the US certificate of citizenship had on his Italian Citizenship. I am been told it did cause him to lose his Italian citizenship and I've heard it did not cause him to lose it. I understand the US government background check is moot in the eyes of the Italian government. In order for the US to determine he still retains his Italian citizenship there must be some Italian record verifying this.

I have been working with an Italian attorney however we seem to be getting lost in uncertanty as opposed to an answer.

VinceJones
Newbie
Newbie
Posts: 1
Joined: 23 Jun 2018, 01:15

Re: Confused on eligibility Jure Sanguinis?

Post by VinceJones » 23 Jun 2018, 01:31

My case seems to be good but I’m not certain:

- Great Gpa born in Italy 1895
- Arrives in USA in 1907
- Marries in USA in 1915
- Has my Gpa in 1924
- Great Gpa naturalizes in 1928
- Gpa has my mom in 1954
- Mom has me in 1989

My Great Gpa naturalized after 1912, so my Gpa was able to continue the line even though he was a minor correct? And the line continued through my mother since she was born after 1948 right?

I think the only place I could get rejected is if my Great Great Gpa was naturalized before 1912.

Post Reply