Citizenship Fail

[jennabet]

AlliG, please advise the forum when you have been recognized as an Italian citizen either by a consulate or a court in Italy. We won't hold our breath.

[mler]

Yes, AliG, please do. I'm sure jennebet will be happy for you when your citizenship is acknowledged. I know I will. Best of luck.

BTW, I tend to agree with you that this may have been a poor decision by one person. You may want to speak to someone else in the consulate before going the legal route. It will save you some money.

[AlliG]

AliG, I forgot to ask. Is your grand-mother's name listed on your grand-father's naturalization certificate as his wife? My grand-mother's name IS listed on my grand-father's naturalization certificate but that's because they were legally married and also the reason the consulate had no question regarding who my father's father was and that Italian citizenship definitely passed to him.

Yes, my Italian born grandmother is also listed as the wife on the Naturalization document. Same names on my father's US birth certificate (Italian born Luigi as father, Italian born Maria as mother, Vincenzo as son). Maria is also listed as the wife on Luigi's death certificate, but the Consulate would not even look at the supporting documents without the marriage certificate....which seemed like more of a personal decision by our reviewer rather than a legal view (again, I do know other people personally who were successful with this approach previously). But what do i know at this point?

Does anyone here have any US representation that they might recommend to appeal?

[mler]

I think you would have greater success filing an appeal in Italy.

In the meantime, if your grandparents were indeed married, continue your record search. You may want to see if a marriage license application is on file. Sometimes you can find the application before the certificate.

Why not check with one of the Italian lawyers who handle citizenship cases. A legal case would involve additional cost, but would be completed in well under three years. At the very least, if you write to one of them and explain your situation, he will be able to tell what your options are.

[jennabet]

So, I'm not saying he did, but why would anyone be so naieve as to think an immigrant would not dare lie about his marital status and/or other things on a petition for US citizenship? These days we know for a fact that immigrants do lie about such things and that they also vote illegally. Why would it have been any different for some immigrants back then? Claiming to married and the father of a child on a naturalization certificate while no marriage certificate seems to exist would and should be something to give the consulate pause and apparently it did.

[jennabet]

AliG, I forgot to ask. Is your grand-mother's name listed on your grand-father's naturalization certificate as his wife? My grand-mother's name IS listed on my grand-father's naturalization certificate but that's because they were legally married and also the reason the consulate had no question regarding who my father's father was and that Italian citizenship definitely passed to him.

Yes, my Italian born grandmother is also listed as the wife on the Naturalization document. Same names on my father's US birth certificate (Italian born Luigi as father, Italian born Maria as mother, Vincenzo as son). Maria is also listed as the wife on Luigi's death certificate, but the Consulate would not even look at the supporting documents without the marriage certificate....which seemed like more of a personal decision by our reviewer rather than a legal view (again, I do know other people personally who were successful with this approach previously). But what do i know at this point?

Does anyone here have any US representation that they might recommend to appeal?

Actually, I don't think it's a personal decision or bias by your reviewer at the consulate. They know far more about situations of Italian immigrants than you or I are even aware of. It's possible your grand-father may have been already married in Italy to someone else before he went to the USA and got together with your grand-mother so he was not able to marry her. The consulate would consider lying about it on a US naturalization certificate to be a serious matter. I would suggest you try to find his ship manifest. It would list information such as who he was traveling with and who he was going to see in the United States. It's even possible that if he was married to someone else that this wife was already in the United States herself when he was naturalized.

[jennabet]

We had our appointment this week. We had all our documents except for one missing marriage certificate for my grandparents (both Italian born). We have my father's birth certificate, listing them as the parents. We have searched all over the city of New York, all the churches, as well as their hometown in Italy.

AlliG, you state above that you checked the hometown in Italy for your grand-parents marriage certificate and didn't find anything. In Italy, marriages take place and are recorded in the bride's hometown (commune). If your grand-father was married to someone else before he left for the USA, you would have to know the name of the commune where that marriage took place.

[AlliG]

They were from the same town (Mormanno). They came here separately, both their ship manifests list them as single. He lived with a friend and she with her brother, birth were on the same street. His initial intention to naturalize document had him as single, and within the 3 years until the naturalization occurred the wife and son were added.

I had a letter from the Commune saying they were both from there and they could not locate a marriage on file in the town.

I have all of my father's church info (baptism, marriage), just not this missing marriage certificate. I have many other documents- WW1 draft cards, etc that pinpoint a marriage between late 1917/early 1918.

The only reason I say I felt it was this reviewer in particular is that I have personal friends that were also missing marriage certificates and were processed.

[jennabet]

AlliG, how old was your grand-father when he arrived and what year did he arrive? Your situation sounds similar to mine. My grand-parents were also from the same town - Castelli in Abruzzo. My grand-father arrived in 1910 at age 16 and my grand-mother arrived in 1919. They got married in Philadelphia in January 1920. My grand-father was also single when he filed his petition for citizenship. By the time he took the oath, he had married and had a son. Depending on how old your grand-father was when he arrived, it's still possible he had a wife back in Italy. This is what you need to find out. It was not that uncommon. Many immigrants arrived intending to bring over their spouses left in Italy but it didn't always work out that way. Wives didn't want to leave their families so the immigrant men eventually found someone else.

[mler]

I think you're right, AlliG. This appears to have been a unilateral decision made by your reviewer.

Please check the FAQs on the "consulate" section at www.italiancitizenship.freeforums.org There is a thread there that specifically lists what was and what was not accepted at the various consulates in lieu of a missing marriage certificate. As you suspect, there is a total lack of consistency among the various consulates and even within the same consulate. Your personal knowledge of people who have obtained citizenship recognition without a marriage certificate further confirms your suspicion.

There is no reason to believe that your grandfather (and grandmother) lied on various official documents especially on the naturalization petition. Naturalization was a serious undertaking, and it is unlikely that an immigrant would jeopardize his application with a lie.

That the reviewer refused to even review your supporting documents indicates the action of a petty bureaucrat with an understanding of the rules but less understanding of the law.

I do believe that there are SOME consular officials who resent the relative ease with which descendants of Italians can obtain citizenship recognition. They process many applications, some for people with only a very tenuous connection to Italy (one great great great parent who they never knew) and who have never even set foot on Italian soil and cannot speak the Italian language. These same officials cannot obtain US citizenship and, because they work for the consulate, their children are not eligible for jus soli citizenship. It does seem rather unfair. Perhaps that's why they sometimes make things difficult. Who knows.

In any case, the odds are you will beat this, either three years from now or through a lawsuit. Best of luck.

By the way, if he had been married in Italy and intended to send for his wife, he would not have listed himself as "single" on the ship manifest. Focus on NY.

Unfortunately, NY documents from that period were sometimes lost. I was never able to locate my grandmother's NYC birth certificate from 1900 and both she and her family confirmed the date and place of birth.

[mler]

AlliG, do you live in or near NYC? This is the information provided by the Municipal Archives in NY:

"You may search for birth, death and marriage records in-person at the Municipal Archives. All birth, death, and marriage records, and the indexes that pertain to them, are on microfilm for easy access. There is no charge to use the microfilm. Certified copies may be ordered over-the-counter and will be printed while you wait. The fee is $11.00 per copy. There is not a self-service copy service for vital records. Our hours are available here."

Sometimes the best search is the one you make yourself. It may be worth a trip into NY to do a personal search and then enjoy one of the city's great restaurants.

Your search should also focus on the marriage "license." Occasionally, a marriage took place in the church, and the church neglected to file the papers post-marriage.

Also, since you know where your grandparents lived before they married, why not check specifically with the parish serving that area. I know you did a church search, but if you personally visit the parish, they may review their records again for you.

In your search, look first under your grandfather's name, and then do a second search under your grandmother's name. One of the names on the documents may have been entered incorrectly, a not-unusual occurance during that period.

Happy hunting!

[jennabet]

By the way, if he had been married in Italy and intended to send for his wife, he would not have listed himself as "single" on the ship manifest. Focus on NY.

Hilarious. He could have been married in Italy with no intention whatsoever to send for his wife. Was it the responsibility of the steamship operators to ensure this man was truthful about his marital status? Just thought I'd ask. Also, most single, family oriented immigrants from Italy did not list that they were staying with a "friend". Usually it was with a family member, uncle, aunt, cousin, etc. Notice the grand-mother stayed with her brother.

Also AlliG, did your grand-parents have other children together or was your father an only child?

[mler]

Wow, jennebet, you have a very negative view of people!

A young man travels to the US to purposely leave his wife. Then he hooks up with a young Italian girl, convinces her to live with him without the benefit of marriage, has illegitimate children with her, and lies about his pretend marriage on his naturalization application, draft records and census. They both lie on their children's birth certificates and she lies on his death certificate. (Her brother was, of course complicit in his sister's deception.)

Yeah that makes a lot more sense than two young single people emigrate to the US, fall in love, get married, and have children. Then their records are lost or misfiled during a time when record keeping was not exemplary.

Whatever...

[jennabet]

That the reviewer refused to even review your supporting documents indicates the action of a petty bureaucrat with an understanding of the rules but less understanding of the law.

I do believe that there are SOME consular officials who resent the relative ease with which descendants of Italians can obtain citizenship recognition. They process many applications, some for people with only a very tenuous connection to Italy (one great great great parent who they never knew) and who have never even set foot on Italian soil and cannot speak the Italian language. These same officials cannot obtain US citizenship and, because they work for the consulate, their children are not eligible for jus soli citizenship. It does seem rather unfair. Perhaps that's why they sometimes make things difficult. Who knows.

And I do believe that there are some consular officials (and hopefully more soon enough) who realize that a more thorough scrutinization might be in order for some of the jures sanguinis citizenship applications presented to them, considering what has recently come to light regarding the current state of the VERY imperfect US immigration system.

[mler]

AlliG, is it possible that your grandparents eloped? Someone posted this on the site I mentioned previously:

"If you want to check the elopement route, start with Cecil County, Maryland, especially the town of Elkton. No waiting period or documentation was required until 1938. . . .My parents eloped to Maryland exactly one month before my father entered the army. I could not find a marriage certificate anywhere in NY State for my parents. A genealogist suggested to look in Maryland and I found the document after more than a year of repeated searches in NY State and NY City."

May be worth a shot.