What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
robertk
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What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by robertk »

Hey all,

Been lurking for a while, and this forum has been exceptionally helpful thus-far! Hit a little bit of a snag, and hoping for your advice.

My mom and I are attempting to gain jure sanguinis dual US-Italian citizenship through my mother's lineage.

Here's what I know about the part of the family tree that might qualify:

Great-Grandfather: Born 1896 in Italy. Emigrated to the US in 1901. I have not been able to find a manifest of who he came here with or any census records verifying they were here through online databases. It seems his parents came here but did not naturalize. We know their names but not their birth dates. GGF filed an intent to naturalize in 1932 as an adult (age 36) and actually naturalized in 1935, leading me to believe his parents never became US citizens. His wife (married in 1922) is also Italian, also came here as an immigrant (age 3), and was also listed with him on his naturalization petition. We do not know her parents names.

Grandma: Born in 1931 in the US. I believe the right to Italian citizenship passed from GGF to her since he was not naturalized when she was born, he naturalized after 1912, and she was already a US citizen from birth by being born here (thus, she would not have naturalized with her parents in 1935).

Mom: Born 1961 as a US citizen

Me: Born 1995 as a US citizen

My mom and I are both trying to apply for jure sanguinis dual citizenship.

Thanks to Tessa78, I've verified the birth record we located for GGF is correct. Now I'm trying to figure out what else I might need.

My largest concern is how the consulate will view GGF coming here at age 5 and there being no records of who he was with. I haven't found any census, immigration, or naturalization records online for his parents, but I believe they came to the US with him in 1901 because they gave birth to another child (GGF's sister) in 1905 in Newark, NJ.

What would you look for or do next in this scenario?

I've seen people mention requesting a records search from NARA, but I'm not sure if that's the next step in this case?

Thank you in advance for any advice you may have!!
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

My grandfather arrived as a 16 year old and naturalized when he was 29. I supplied his birth record and his naturalization record when I applied, and no one at the consulate asked for information concerning his arrival.

That he came as a minor raises concerns that he may have acquired derivative naturalization through the naturalization of his father, but the fact that your ggf naturalized himself in 1935 is sufficient evidence that this was not the case.

You can safely apply through him with his birth, marriage, naturalization and death records. Had he never naturalized, you would have had to trace back to his parents. Fortunately, you won’t have to do that.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by robertk »

mler wrote: 07 Sep 2018, 20:10 That he came as a minor raises concerns that he may have acquired derivative naturalization through the naturalization of his father, but the fact that your ggf naturalized himself in 1935 is sufficient evidence that this was not the case.
This was also what raised concern for me. I've heard hearsay that my local consulate in Miami, FL might request documentation showing that derivative naturalization was not acquired through possible naturalization of Giuseppe's father. That being said, I found his own naturalization petition to be quite compelling evidence that he naturalized himself, and did so intentionally after coming stateside, growing up in NJ, marrying, having children, and living for many years in the US.

Mler, for context, did your grandfather arrive as a 16 year old minor before or after 1912?
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

He arrived in 1916, but that really should not matter. No one at the consulate even asked about his arrival. He could have arrived as an infant in 1901 and the consulate wouldn’t care because as far as they were concerned, he lost citizenship in 1929.

Yes, consulates are very careful about the possibility of derivative naturalization, but they only become concerned if you are submitting an application in which the primary ancestor never naturalized. Thus, if you could not find a record of naturalization for your ggf, the Miami consulate would ask for proof of his father’s status. But derivative naturalization is not an issue for you since you have evidence of an adult naturalization.

The pre-1912 law would not matter in this situation, so try not to worry.

The citizenship paperwork is considerably easier when there is an actual naturalization.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by jennabet »

Consulates scrutinize very carefully date of arrival because before before an immigrant can file a Petition for Citizenship he must meet a residency requirement of at least five years. My grand-father arrived in 1910 at age 16 to follow his father who had arrived in 1905. My grand-father then did the following:

1915 age 21 - Filed Declaration of Intention

1917 age 23 - After meeting the residency requirements of at least five (5) years and being over the age of 21, filed his Petition for Citizenship. The Petition for Citizenship contains ALL information about the immigrant, including name of Ship (in this case the "Florida", which departed Naples on February 28 and arrived in New York harbor on March 13, 1910). Again date of arrival would be thoroughly scrutinized on this document. It is unlikely any consulate would approve a recognition for a descendent if this document was not submitted along with the rest of the naturalization paper work.

1920 - age 26 - Married my Italian grand-mother

1922 - age 28 - First son born (my father)

1923 - age 30 - Took Oath of Allegiance when first son was 18 months old. (Immigrants had up to ten years to complete Oath from date of original Declaration of Intention)

Naturalization records submitted to a consulate should be intact and contain the following three sections:

1. Declaration of Intention
2. Petition for Citizenship (very important -- contains ALL info about immigrant, including date of arrival)
3. Oath of Allegiance

Again, no Petition submitted, no recognition.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

Not to worry, Robertk. No matter when your ggf arrived, your application begins with him because he was the Italian ancestor who naturalized.

Jennebet’s primary ancestor follows the same scenario as mine (and yours)—arrived as a minor; naturalized as an adult. Even though the petition shows your ggf arrived as a minor, the required documentation begins with him as it did for for jennebet’s (and my) grandfather.

Quite frankly, though, although the date of arrival is clearly stated on the petition, Italy is less concerned about US naturalization requirements than they are about the actual fact of naturalization. In my case, only the declaration and oath were submitted and, at that time in NY, it was enough. If I recall correctly, his date of arrival was also listed on the declaration but, again, no need to go back to my ggf.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by jennabet »

The five year residency pertains to the jurisdiction where the Petition for Citizenship is filed. It contains ALL information about the immigrant including original date of arrival and an address within the jurisdiction where the immigrant has resided for at least five years.

The Declaration of Intention may also show date of arrival but it is not important because the address on this document is often an earlier address and even one in a different jurisdiction where the immigrant first arrived. On my grandfather's Declaration of Intention, his address was in the Philadelphia, PA district. On his Petition for Citizenship, his address corresponded to the jurisdiction (in another state entirely) where he resided for at least five years and where he was seeking citizenship.

Applicants that do NOT submit a Petition for Citizenship with all pertinent information about the immigrant including how long he has resided in the jurisdiction where he is seeking citizenship will be rejected.

Also, Declaration of Intention does not contain all of the pertinent information that a Petition for citizenship contains because often immigrants had GOOD Intentions but never followed through and filed the Petition for Citizenship. It makes perfect sense that if a Petition for Citizenship was never filed, an applicant can't submit one and NO applicant is recognized with just a Declaration of Intention and an Oath. Does NOT happen.

Naturalization documents come in three parts. Declaration of Intention, Petition for Citizenship, Oath of Allegiance.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by jennabet »

Correction. My grand-father filed both his Declaration of Intention AND his Petition for Citizenship in the same district. The confusion comes because the dates are close and he was married in Philadelphia where my grand-mother had arrived from Italy and was living with her sisters, in fact right on Christian Street in the famous Italian Market that still exists today. So my grand-father did make frequent trips to Philadelphia. It was, however, quite common for immigrants to file the Declaration of Intention in the place where they were living upon first arrival and then move into another district to file the Petition of Citizenship which requires the five year residency.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

jennabet wrote: 09 Sep 2018, 19:53 Applicants that do NOT submit a Petition for Citizenship with all pertinent information about the immigrant including how long he has resided in the jurisdiction where he is seeking citizenship will be rejected.
...

Also, Declaration of Intention does not contain all of the pertinent information that a Petition for citizenship contains because often immigrants had GOOD Intentions but never followed through and filed the Petition for Citizenship. It makes perfect sense that if a Petition for Citizenship was never filed, an applicant can't submit one and NO applicant is recognized with just a Declaration of Intention and an Oath. Does NOT happen.

I think you’re corrrect that consulates want all three documents, and they should all be submitted.

Although my experience was different, I believe it was an anomaly. The person to whom I submitted my application was only interested in the Oath and barely looked at the Declaration. He didn’t see the Petition or the Certificate of Naturalization because I didn’t submit them. I doubt this happened often, and I doubt it would happen today, but both my son and I were recognized; and we are both registered in AIRE and in our comune of Napoli. I sometimes wonder if it was presence and advocacy of my husband (born and raised in Italy) that facilitated our recognition process.

Then too, when I applied, there were many many fewer people seeking citizenship, and the consulates were not very busy. Also NY was a rather liberal consulate at the time. Things have certainly changed, and applicants should submit everything listed on the consulate website.

However, the OP’s concern is focused, not on the documents that are required for his ggf (he seems well aware of the requirements), but on whether he is also required to submit documents for his gggf. Both jennebet’s and my experiences demonstrate that paperwork for the gggf is not required if the ggf naturalized as an adult.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by robertk »

Thank you all for sharing your experiences and reassuring me here! I went digging further and found the microfilm copies of my GGF's declaration of intention, petition, and oath—the whole package from the court naturalization records. That reassures me that I won't have to find my GGGF's papers now.

Follow up question came up after I read the declaration of intention, and now I'm wondering if a typo on that declaration & petition is going to require me to do any extra paperwork—

My GGF was born in San Fele, Italy on 13 Nov 1896 as Giuseppe Serritella (two r's in the surname). We located the original birth record from his comunne, and are working on getting a copy of it. When he immigrated, he immigrated as Giuseppe Seritella (one r in the surname). His petition for citizenship actually had a clerical error on it that referred to him as "Seratilla," but in the petition it clarifies that who they're talking about is Giuseppe Seritella (one r) born in San Fele on 13 Nov 1896.

I've heard of the consulates overlooking typographical errors or slight name changes in given name on the naturalization papers, but scrutinizing the surname more closely. Any of you guys experience issues (or hear of people experiencing issues) with a letter being dropped in the ascendant's surname coming up during the application process?
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

The clarification in the petition should be very helpful in explaining the discrepancy. You are likely to be ok with this, but always keep in mind (and my situation confirms this) that no one’s experience is a sure guarantee that your experience will be the same.

For what it’s worth, my grandfather’s papers had a minor spelling error in his given name that was overlooked.

If, for some reason, your consulate wants further proof, you would then have to ask the comune to declare that no one with the alternate name was born there on that date. It’s likely you won’t need this extra step.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by robertk »

mler wrote: 09 Sep 2018, 22:36 always keep in mind (and my situation confirms this) that no one’s experience is a sure guarantee that your experience will be the same.
Certainly! And very interested to hear what happened in your situation, if you don't mind my asking?
mler wrote: 09 Sep 2018, 22:36 If, for some reason, your consulate wants further proof, you would then have to ask the comune to declare that no one with the alternate name was born there on that date. It’s likely you won’t need this extra step.
Thank you!! I would have never thought of this!
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

By “my situation“ I simply meant that the consulates were a bit more flexible when I applied. I obtained citizenship even without submitting a petition and Certificate of Naturalization. I also received recognition from the NY Consulate with my son although my residence was in the jurisdiction of the Newark Consulate (no longer in operation). I seriously doubt that would ever happen today.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by robertk »

Oh yes that certainly would never happen today! That had to be a long time ago that you applied. With how popular dual citizenship in the EU has become these days, it seems the consulates are inundated with requests. Any advice as to how I should go about scheduling the appointment with the consulate? I'd assume that there will be a large time delay between when I schedule and when I can go present the documents, so I'm considering scheduling in advance.
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Re: What am I missing? Attempting jure sanguinis through mother's line

Post by mler »

Definitely schedule NOW! You will be ready long before your appointment date. Appointments are now made online.

Btw, that’s another thing that has changed. My son and I called in for a quick appointment for our passports after our recognition. It was an easy process, and we were able to talk to a real person. Today, passport appointments are also scheduled on line, and I understand there is a wait of several months and little time and date flexibility. Our passports have just recently expired, and the consulate no longer renews. You have to apply for a new one—a problem for my son, whose hectic work schedule makes long-term planning difficult.
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