Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Over 25 million Italians have emigrated between 1861 and 1960 with a migration boom between 1871 and 1915 when over 13,5 million emigrants left the country for European and overseas destinations.
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Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 22 Sep 2018, 17:08

Deputy Prime Minister/Interior Minister Matteo Salvini has stated that details of a new Security Decree will be announced on Monday, September 23 to include making it more difficult to obtain residence permits or stay in Italy. Also a new census of Italy's population and residences will start in October and will take place every year instead of every ten years. Sounds like "comuni turning a blind eye to illegitimate or temporary residences" might not be doing so any longer. So there is nothing illegal about setting up a temporary residence in Italy? Well actually there is -- if you're a tourist. For example, I'm not a tourist and I could have a temporary residence for a seasonal home in the mountains -- as do many of my neighbors. But a tourist should not be able to obtain ANY residency in Italy for ANY reason.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 24 Sep 2018, 16:59

Some details of Interior Minister Salvini's Security Decree have been released today. The draft contains 42 articles, the first 16 pertaining to residence. Special resident permits can be granted to:

1. Victims of serious exploitation
2. Victims of domestic violence
3. People who's countries of ORIGIN have been hit by disaster
4. People needing medical care
5. People who have committed acts of high civic value

There is nothing in this list that pertains to a temporary/special residence permit for a TOURIST applying for citizenship in Italy because the wait time at a consulate abroad is too long.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by mler » 24 Sep 2018, 17:15

Just to be clear, this is a “security-migrant” decree that is directed to those seeking asylum in Italy.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by mler » 24 Sep 2018, 17:15

Just to be clear, this is a “security-migrant” decree that is directed to those seeking asylum in Italy.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 24 Sep 2018, 17:17

It's not a security-migrant decree. It's a Security decree AND a Migrant decree. The security part pertains to everyone -- not just migrants.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by mler » 24 Sep 2018, 17:23

Well, we will have to see. I doubt very much the consulates will be changing the rules for citizenship reacquisition, which permits temporary residency while reacquisition is in process. I also doubt that the many paid services that offer assistance with citizenship applications in Italy will be out of business any time soon. If either or both occur, I will definitely agree with you. Until such time, however, I think your interpretation is overly broad.

For those interested:

http://www.ansa.it/english/news/politic ... 10d45.html

This would replace the former “humanitarian permit.”

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 24 Sep 2018, 18:04

The decree is entitled Security-Migrant Decree. If it just pertained to migrants, it would be Migrant Security Decree. The hyphen in between the words Security and Migrant means it pertains to TWO subjects. The subject of Security pertains to everyone.

Regarding reacquiring citizenship. Residence permits for these applicants has always been OK because they can't get the residence in Italy without first being vetted by a consulate. But tourists who just drop in and expect residence because the wait at the consulate is too long won't be dropping in anymore unless they arrive with a visa and intend to remain in Italy for four years, the entire time it will now take for a civic office in Italy to process a request.

In addition, the first census of all residences will begin in October and be conducted once a year after that. The special permits have been listed. People answering the census had better be prepared to list a valid reason for being granted a special permit. This is what the security portion of the decree is all about. We really don't know who these Tourists are that drop in and expect to obtain residence because they haven't been vetted by a consulate, have they? But according to them it should be OK because some non government company is handling things for them? We don't think so. We are entitled to maximum safety and security in Italy.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by mler » 24 Sep 2018, 18:22

All I’ve read seems to indicate that these rules are directed to migrants. However, I won’t argue with you. We will have to agree to disagree on this. Time will tell.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by OpusReticulatum » 25 Sep 2018, 01:19

At 16 pages, with many references to changes in the code, there is a lot to unpack.

https://www.ilmessaggero.it/uploads/ckf ... 124355.pdf

That being said, the categories enumerated above pertain to special residency permits for reasons that would previously have warranted humanitarian residency permits, since the humanitarian permits are being replaced.

"Abrogazione del permesso di soggiorno per motivi umanitari e disciplina di casi speciali di permessi di
soggiorno temporanei per esigenze di carattere umanitario." Capo I, Art. 1

A permesso di soggiorno for either reacquiring citizenship, or for applying for citizenship at a comune never fell under the classification of per motivi umanitari. So, such permessi might not be affected by this decreto. How all of this will be interpreted by the various offices remains to be seen, until further explanations are issued.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 25 Sep 2018, 11:15

A person applying for reacquisition of citizenship is first vetted by a consulate before he can obtain residence in Italy for the purpose of reacquiring. Please tell me why you think its OK for applicants to bypass a consulate because the wait is too long and just waltz into Italy unvetted and demand residence in order to apply for citizenship? We don't know who these unvetted tourists are or who's documents they're using. It's been my experience that federal agencies in the USA will give naturalization records, census info, birth and marriage documents to nearly anyone who asks for them. The census starting in October and to be taken every year after that will determine just how many people are here who should not be here. There are 42 parts to the security decree, 16 of which pertain to residence -- so it is not just all about migrants.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 25 Sep 2018, 17:08

Also important. Before anyone obtains legal residence in Italy the anagrafe will send that person to appear in person at the Rifiuti (garbage) Tax Office. Once this obligation is met the applicant returns to the anagrafe with proof that the bill has been paid and the residence is established.

However, the Rifuti office then sends a tax bill out every year to the same address. I can just imagine the administrative nightmare and extra work forced on civil servants having to deal with hundreds or even thousands of tax bills that are returned undeliverable every year because the tourist who has one great-great Italian grand-father and thinks he's entitled to an Italian passport for bragging rights cannot wait in line at his consulate and is no longer at that address to receive and pay the garbage invoice.

Now that the time to process a recognition case in Italy has been extended to 48 months, applicants can no longer sue the government if they aren't processed in 24 months but scenarios like what is described above are also being reported to a new government that so far has been very effective in listening to the Italian people and looking for new ways to make things more efficient.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by OpusReticulatum » 25 Sep 2018, 18:56

A person applying for reacquisition of citizenship is first vetted by a consulate before he can obtain residence in Italy for the purpose of reacquiring.


Are they indeed vetted, or do you just presume that they are? Do you know for sure?

Or, do they take the application, look it over, corroborate the information on it with the documents submitted (to confirm that it's for someone who lost Italian citizenship) and then stamp it approved?

Remember, this is not about what you think the consulate should be doing, or what you presume they do. Do you know for sure, and if so, how do you know?


Please tell me why you think its OK for applicants to bypass a consulate because the wait is too long and just waltz into Italy unvetted and demand residence in order to apply for citizenship?
I never said that I did. I'm actually a bit conflicted on the matter.

On the one hand, I can understand people, specifically our fellow Italians in South America, who have to wait an extremely long time just to get an appointment (around 10 years in Argentina and Brazil) compared to those living in the rest of the world (about 1 to 2 years). I can see how people in South America, who have had these 10 year wait times for many years now, and are without any sign that those times will lessen and match up with the rest of the world, would find this situation to be most unfair. In that light, I can understand if people in that situation would look for any legal opportunity or loophole which would allow them to circumvent a decade-long wait.

On the other hand, this is an option that's only available to those who can both spare upwards of $10,000 and afford to live in Italy for a few months without working. That puts this option out of the hands of the average person. And if the average person does go this route, it's not without substantial sacrifice. That being the case, while the apply in Italy route provides an avenue to circumvent the unfair wait times for those who live in places with a 10 year wait time, it's not an equitable route in terms of its availability for everyone in that situation.

I do wonder why the average applicant in places like the US (and I must stress that I mean the average applicant) would feel the need to make the process go much quicker than the standard wait. If everyone else is waiting 1 or 2 years, that's not a terribly long wait, as it's what everyone else is waiting (outside of South America).

However, there are people who have time-sensitive needs for an earlier appointment: people who are relocating to Italy and are on a schedule, those who are retiring in Italy and need to be able to make firm arrangements, those who are attending school in Italy, and those who have the opportunity to take a position in Italy. Perhaps the Italian government could institute an express appointment system for such people. Such a system could entail a higher appointment fee, and would require a special application, along with proof that they have a time-sensitive need. This would be used to screen out those who would just pay the higher fee, but don't have any time constraints warranting an earlier appointment.



We don't know who these unvetted tourists are or who's documents they're using.


If that is the case, then you will have to concede that the consulates also don't know who the unvetted people who walk through their door are, or whose documents they are using. Why should the difference in venue, consulate vs comune, make any difference in terms of trustworthiness of applicants and their documents?

Italy receives tens of millions of tourist each year, and they're not vetted. Over 50 per year, to be more precise.

And many of them don't require a visa to remain in Italy for up to 90 days.

So, Italy allows 50 million tourists in per year, and many of them can just wander around the entire peninsula as they wish for 90 days . . . but you're concerned that the person who applies for a permesso di soggiorno and remains in a comune for a couple of months, where the authorities know they are, is the one who is a security risk?

It's been my experience that federal agencies in the USA will give naturalization records, census info, birth and marriage documents to nearly anyone who asks for them.
1) Birth and marriage documents are issued by state and local offices, not federal agencies.

2) Certified official birth and marriage documents, the only ones that the consulates and comuni will accept, are only issued to either the person named on the certificate, their spouse, or their child (or sometimes grandchild). And that's only in the "easy" states. Other states will only issue a certified BC or MC to the person named on the document or to a family member with the Power of Attorney. All others (including their own children) will have to obtain a court order for the document, which is what happens in those states when the person on the document is deceased.

3) Naturalization records and census information are matters of public record, although census information is only released 72 years after the census date. However, naturalization/census information is useless with official documents which can corroborate that you are linked to the people in the naturalization/census information. And, as noted above, such official documents (in the format required by the consulates and comuni) are not just handed out to anyone who asks.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by jennabet » 25 Sep 2018, 21:20

Here is the bottom line. Anyone applying for Italian citizenship who is NOT stateless meaning they already have a passport from some other country CAN afford to wait ten years or even 20 years for an Italian passport. Special cases ARE taken into consideration (see the list of special permits).

Also it really does not matter who issues the documents in the USA. During the entire time I've been in Italy (nearly 20 years) I have never heard the words "Identity Theft" used. Not ever once. Not by my bank, not by any government authority, not by any state authority and it's well known that Europeans have more privacy rights than do Americans. It's also well known that unfortunately, the USA still has a problem with identity theft, which is another good reason for tourists seeking Italian citizenship in Italy to be screened by an Italian consulate first. Your American passport is a visa waiver for tourist purposes only. If an American tourist wants to also conduct personal business in Italy, he needs a visa and a visa requires a visit to a consulate.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by mler » 25 Sep 2018, 22:26

People who apply jure sanguinis at a consulate or at a comune are not actually “screened.” The consulate simply accepts the documentation tracing their citizenship line. The applicant is identified by his certified birth certificate. Applicants for reacquisition need only submit their birth certificates and proof of naturalization.

People who apply through marriage ARE vetted. They need to supply FBI search records and search histories from the states in which they resided.

It’s easy to say that a person can wait ten years or more. Neither you nor I had to do that. When we applied, the procedure was relatively fast. And we are not talking here about people who are requesting something to which they are not entitled. These are legitimate Italians who are trying to obtain their birthright. As long as Italian laws work on the principle of jure sanguinis, an Italian citizen has a right to be recognized in a timely manner and to enjoy the benefits of his citizenship.

And whether you’ve heard of it or not, with current technology, identity theft is a worldwide problem.

By the way, OR, the US is catching up with South America. Someone recently reported getting an 2026 appointment at LA.

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Re: Security Decree - Coming Monday 9/23

Post by OpusReticulatum » 25 Sep 2018, 22:55

Here is the bottom line. Anyone applying for Italian citizenship who is NOT stateless meaning they already have a passport from some other country CAN afford to wait ten years or even 20 years for an Italian passport. Special cases ARE taken into consideration (see the list of special permits).

Coming from someone who achieved her dream of getting Italian citizenship recognition and moving to Italy 20 years ago, your comment comes across as a bit you have yours, that's all that matters. So what if others with similar dreams lose out on the 10 or 20 years that you've been able to live yours?

Also it really does not matter who issues the documents in the USA.
Just clarifying and disentangling the two very different things that you conflated in your comment.

During the entire time I've been in Italy (nearly 20 years) I have never heard the words "Identity Theft" used.Not ever once. Not by my bank
Of course you haven't. You have heard the phrase furto d'identità, and it does exist in Italy, and it is a problem.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9qDWLmJQ7eI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaQfYZzgYAo

not by any government authority, not by any state authority
Perhaps you haven't heard it them say it, but Italian government has certainly mentioned it.

The Ministry of the Economy and Finance even established a public prevention system to attempt to deal with it.

"Il Titolo V-bis del decreto legislativo 13 agosto 2010, n. 141, così come introdotto dal decreto legislativo 11 aprile 2011, n. 64, ha istituito, nell’ambito del Ministero dell’economia e delle finanze, un Sistema pubblico di prevenzione, sul piano amministrativo, delle frodi nel settore del credito al consumo, con specifico riferimento al furto di identità. La Direzione V del Dipartimento del Tesoro ha di conseguenza ampliato l’ambito dei suoi compiti istituzionali in materia di prevenzione dei reati finanziari. "

https://automazionebancaria.blogspot.co ... ipafi.html

Government agency links:

http://www.dt.tesoro.it/it/attivita_ist ... _identita/

https://scipafi.mef.gov.it/ScipafiWEB/

and it's well known that Europeans have more privacy rights than do Americans. It's also well known that unfortunately, the USA still has a problem with identity theft,
Both true. But that higher level of privacy does not erase the existence, or threat, of identity theft for people living in Europe, as the news pieces and links above attest.

which is another good reason for tourists seeking Italian citizenship in Italy to be screened by an Italian consulate first.


Again, since you did not answer the question posed to you previously, how do you know if, or what, screening the Italian consulates do? Furthermore, why can't such screening be done in Italy? Do the consulates have special resources that don't exist in Italy?

Your American passport is a visa waiver for tourist purposes only.
That doesn't matter as far as security goes. A visa-waived tourist is one of more than 50 million unvetted tourists who visit Italy each year. You're very concerned with vetting. What about the 50+ million unvetted people wandering freely all over the country each year?

If an American tourist wants to also conduct personal business in Italy, he needs a visa and a visa requires a visit to a consulate.
Right. And with a long-term visa, you can get a residence permit.

https://traveltips.usatoday.com/obtain- ... 09541.html

And if one has a residence permit, they would, legally, be allowed to apply for citizenship at the comune.

And since they were granted a visa by the Italian government, wouldn't that mean that were they vetted before it was issued?

And if they were vetted, then your security concerns have been addressed.

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