Does my grandmother need to come with me to my appointment in order to sign the "living Italian Ascendant?" Or can she..

[Menefreghista]

Or can she just sign it? Or is it not required at all in my case because she has naturalized? I'm so confused about this and keep getting different answers.

My grandmother is in her 90s..I see this as a major problem. I don't know if I can physically get her to and from Philadelphia for my appointment.

[mler]

Your gm does not need to accompany you, and she can’t sign the declaration of living ascendant (which claims she never naturalized or renounced) because she did. The form is not needed for naturalized ascendants.

[Menefreghista]

Your gm does not need to accompany you, and she can’t sign the declaration of living ascendant (which claims she never naturalized or renounced) because she did. The form is not needed for naturalized ascendants.

Thank you so much for your reply, I really appreciate it.

So, just to be clear, this means that....

For myself, I will need to fill out the "Declaration of Applicant," but not sign it until I'm at the consulate.

For my father, I will need to fill out the "Declaration of Deceased Italian Ascendant," but not sign it until I'm at the consulate.

For my Grandmother, I will NOT need to fill out the "Declaration of Living Ascendant" at all. She will not need to sign anything, and will not need to be present during my appointment, because she has naturalized, and her Naturalization documents satisfy this requirement? And I can still acquire Italian Citizenship via J.S. because she naturalized after my father's birth.

Am I understanding everything correctly?

[mler]

Yes!

[Menefreghista]

Yes!

Okay, I will take you at your word on this. Thank you!

[Menefreghista]

Someone replied to my question on another forum and told me I will need to take my grandmother to a notary and she will need to fill it out and I will need to take to my consulate appointment.

Are these other people wrong? Is there another situation where this might be necessary, but it doesn't apply in my case?

Just wondering why there's a discrepancy in responses on this.

[mler]

I will try to explain (although I think the answer is obvious). First have you read the declaration?

It states that the signer never renounced Italian citizenship and acknowledges that he/she will be considered an Italian citizen if the application is accepted.

Obviously, if an ascendant in the line is not the one who naturalized, he/she would have to sign such a document to demonstrate the continuity of the line.

If the ascendant lost citizenship through naturalization, signing such a document would be lying. He/she did lose citizenship and his/her citizenship would not be acknowledged except through his/her own application (which at this point, requires residency).

[Menefreghista]

I appreciate your patience with me on this. I'm just trying to avoid a situation where I show up to the consulate unprepared. I'm very concerned about this, because I've gotten different answers, and I'm not sure who to believe.

Here is the other response I've received on this question:

"You fill out Forms 1 & 2 for yourself.
You would also fill out Form 4 regarding your deceased father.
Sign these documents in front of the consular officer. No notary required.

Have your grandmother fill out Form 3 for herself.
(You can help her, but see that she fills it out in her own handwriting. The officer may ask you if she filled it out herself.)
If she signs in front of a notary, she does not need to accompany you to your appointment.

Renunciation is rare, and is different from naturalization. To renounce is to intentionally relinquish one's citizenship in front of an Italian authority. If Grandma can't recall doing that, you're probably fine. Especially since the ascendants between us and our Italian ancestors usually had no idea they were Italian citizens by birth. Your consulate will confirm no renunciation for everyone in your line. They do this by contacting the consulate(s) having jurisdiction over each of the locations listed on each of your Forms.

What usually disqualifies people is their Italian ancestor's naturalization date in relation to their child's birthdate. And/or 1948*.
In your case, you're fine.

*which we know can be contested in Italian court"

To which I responded:

"But she has in fact "renounced" by naturalizing, no? I'm just still eligible because it happened after my father's birth. So, I'm fairly sure this particular piece of paper won't even be necessary."

And I recieved this reply:
"No. Renunciation is a formal process in which the citizen tells the Italian authority “I do not want to be an Italian citizen”. Those who lost their Italian citizenship by ‘involuntary forfeiture’ due to their foreign naturalization and the laws of that time are viewed differently in the eyes of the Italian government. (In fact, they became eligible to reclaim their citizenship in 1992.)

From what you’ve indicated, your grandmother *did not* renounce. She needs to fill out Form 3."

Is this person just completely wrong?

[mler]

Since this is so worrisome for you, why not just fill out the form and.take it with you. I honestly doubt you will need it, but you will have it just in case.

For what it’s worth, I applied through my gf. I submitted my father’s Declaration of Living Ascendant and only naturalization papers for my gf. I did not submit a Declaration for a Deceased Ascendant for him, and it wasn’t requested.

[mler]

I do know you’re worried, and that’s why I suggested including that form.

The poster to whom you referred is correct in that naturalization is not the same as renunciation. But they both resulted (before 1992) in the loss of citizenship. Once citizenship is lost, it cannot be lost again. Since your gm’s naturalization ended her citizenship, renunciation by her is an impossibility. You do, of course, need a statement on behalf of your deceased father. He was born in the US and could only lose citizenship by renunciation (extremely rare but possible).

Note the following statement on the Declaration form:

“IN REFERENCE TO THE APPLICANT’S REQUEST FOR RECOGNITION OF ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP JURE SANGUINIS, AND BEING AWARE THAT THE UNDERSIGNED WILL ALSO OBTAIN HIS/HER OWN RECOGNITION OF ITALIAN CITIZENSHIP”

Do you really think this applies to your gm?

However, as I stated earlier, you have nothing to lose by bringing in a statement. If it helps you sleep better, it is worth the extra step.

[Menefreghista]

Since this is so worrisome for you, why not just fill out the form and.take it with you. I honestly doubt you will need it, but you will have it just in case.

For what it’s worth, I applied through my gf. I submitted my father’s Declaration of Living Ascendant and only naturalization papers for my gf. I did not submit a Declaration for a Deceased Ascendant for him, and it wasn’t requested.

Okay, I guess I will try to do this before my appointment, just in case. Thanks! My only concern is her extremely old age and the logistics of getting her to and from some sort of notary (not sure if it will need to be a certain type of notary or if they are all the same) in order to fill it out and sign it.

[mler]

Any notary will do. Ask around. Perhaps you will find someone willing to go to her house.

I would suggest that you hold the form aside and present it only if asked. Your gm would be stating that she never renounced (which is technically correct) and that she understands she will be recognized as a citizen as well (which is incorrect). Because she will have signed a form that is not completely accurate, you should only submit it if it is required. As an alternative, you can cross out the inaccurate part, but if that makes you uncomfortable, simply hold the form aside. You will have it if they want it.

And do let us know if they want it. Your experience will be instructive to others.