JS Naturalization: grandparents moved back and forth between US and Italy

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Joined: 17 Sep 2019, 20:18

JS Naturalization: grandparents moved back and forth between US and Italy

Post by subterranean » 17 Sep 2019, 20:51

I'm pretty stumped on this one on what to do and I may need an Italian genealogist or a professional to help me out. Please let me know your thoughts or recommendations.

Long story short, I have all relevant birth, death and marriage certificates from both Italy and the U.S. for 5 generations, with apostilles where necessary.

[*] GGGF came to U.S. in 1890. Said on 1900 census he naturalized in Syracuse in 1899.
[*] GGF born 1 month AFTER 1900 census and does NOT appear on census.
[*] 1906 NY State Census shows both GGGF and GGF. Both GGGF and GGGM are marked as "citizens"
[*] Family does NOT exist on 1910 census because they left in 1906
[*] Requested searches from Onondaga County, some neighboring counties, and the state, and ALL say "no record". The county record is certified.
[*] Certified ship manifest of alien passengers from NARA shows family returning to US in 1919. Clearly shows my GGF as the only US citizen and GGGF/GGGM as aliens. Manifest says they lived in the US previously for 16 years (from 1890-1906). Which means they lived in Italy together for about 13 years and returned after World War I. Passports were REQUIRED to enter the United States in the immediate years following 1918 given the war. I have this printed from the NARA web site. So my GGGF/GGGM would have needed Italian passports if the ship manifest counted them as "aliens".
[*] One of the older sons stayed in the US and moved to Detroit. The family moved to Detroit in 1919 and and GGGF/GGGM are on the 1920 and 1930 censuses. Both state GGGF naturalized.
[*] GGGF/GGGM moved back to Italy after 1930 but before about 1932 (not sure exact date), but both death records are from Italy as they died there in the 1930s.
[*] No record from USCIS, Wayne County/Detroit, the State of Michigan, or the Chicago NARA office,which covers Detroit.

The angle I am considering pursuing is given the apparent lie of naturalization on censuses is that they all returned to Italy for 13 years, and through that residency, would've re-established citizenship had it been lost.

I am wondering if anyone on this forum can help me find censuses in Italy. I reached out to the comune and after years of communication with them to request the certified records for birth, death, marriage, etc., they seem done with me and do not respond. Has anyone pursued this angle? The re-acquisition of Italian citizenship? If so, were you successful and if so how did you prove it? Does anyone have any resources or contacts for someone to help me with researching this issue? At this point, I am willing to pay for help after all the time and expense I've dedicated to this.

I have an appt early in 2021 with the SF consulate, so I have some time, but I'm well aware of how quickly it can go by if I don't get on it now.

Thank you

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Re: JS Naturalization: grandparents moved back and forth between US and Italy

Post by suanj » 02 Nov 2019, 18:57

Hi, maybe I don't understood very well,
but if your concern is abt italian citizenship of GGF born 1 month after 1900 census, and then back in Italy, well, the his Birth must be recorded also in Italy, in the residence place of the family, so on 1906 the his father given the US Birth certificate to italian Registrar, to transcribe it… and in the moment that the Registrar transcribe it on the Birth register, you can request the Birth certificate of GGF, directly in Italy, because he is a italian Citizen born in foreign country…
Because your GGGF maybe renounced to italian citizenship in USA, but no in ITALY, and if he went back in Italy, he should have confirmed it, but I really think he didn't.
Because when an Italian citizen renounces Italian citizenship, there must be a renunciation on his Birth record.

And surely he given the foreign Birth certificate of your GGF to Registrar.. to file it, and that, the Birth record in the italian Birth registrer correspond to have the italian citizenship…

I believe that your focus is on your GGF Birth record filed in Italy… The italian clerk can relay, no problem, a italian Citizen born in foreign country… GGF will have gone to school, will have needed the Italian birth certificate for school enrollment, right ..
I am sure that his foreign birth certificate was transcribed in Italy and this is equivalent to having Italian citizenship ...
Try to find, if you find the Birth transcript in the italian civil records, before requesting the Italian certificate in the Commune, ask the Consulate if a italian Birth certificate of a child born in foreign country from a father naturalized before of his Birth, is ok for the dual citizenship request..
Best regards,
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