U3b mtDNA subclade

Genetic genealogy is the application of genetics to traditional genealogy. Genetic genealogy involves the use of genealogical DNA testing to determine the level and type of the genetic relationship between individuals.
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MarcuccioV
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U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

Just revisiting this as it has been awhile. I'm still awaiting on acceptance to two U3b mtDNA projects on FTDNA, but as people join this site, perhaps they aren't aware of this thread.

Has ANYONE tested mtDNA and come up U3b..? It seems to have roots anywhere from the Caucasus/Anatolia to Romania/Bulgaria and beyond, with a disconnected but acute grouping in Jordan. I've read that it may be Thracian, yet it has been found in the DNA of an ancient Viking in Denmark.

Although an extremely rare subclade, it has been found in higher concentrations in Romany peoples (55%) and Jordanians near the Dead Sea (40%). In Italy (where my grandmother was born, near Rome), it averages >2% total.

Out of the 1500 matches on 23&me (that opt into sharing), only ONE showed a close match at U3b1 (a later subclade). But no family connection could be determined, although his ethnic makeup IS 12% Italian. He matches exclusively my paternal relatives (not Italian)...

ANY U3b's out there..?
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by darkerhorse »

For what time period does mtDNA apply?
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 18:27 For what time period does mtDNA apply?
It goes back on your direct maternal line only. Most subclades go back 10k-25k years. Mutations are relatively rare. Not much info out there as it's so uncommon in the general populations outside of those I mentioned.

Maybe once I'm accepted into one (or both) of those mtDNA projects I'll be able to get more information...
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by darkerhorse »

Going that far back, isn't the direct ancestor originating the mtDNA only "one of a million" direct ancestors in your family tree at that generation?

Of course, it's interesting but it doesn't tell you much about your heritage, does it?

At least, the Y DNA follows your surname, in most cases. So, you can relate more to it's origin
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 13 Apr 2021, 19:53 Going that far back, isn't the direct ancestor originating the mtDNA only "one of a million" direct ancestors in your family tree at that generation?

Of course, it's interesting but it doesn't tell you much about your heritage, does it?

At least, the Y DNA follows your surname, in most cases. So, you can relate more to it's origin
Yes, that IS true, but in the U3b case there are some special circumstances. It's extremely rare outside of the Romany populations and Dead Sea Jordanians (which was likely a "founder" population). It's only at about 6% in and around the areas where it originated (as U3b) around the shores of the Black Sea.

Although I would likely need to do a full-mtDNA sequence to find out all the various mutations which might narrow it down, I'm just curious how long it's been in Italy and which route it may have taken.

As far as Italy, it seems slightly more common (3%) in Sicily than in the peninsula, but there's a micropopulation of U3b around Venice, I believe (somewhere up north, at least). They may be from different sources (Romany vs Jordanian).

Since the Romany peoples rarely interbred with the populations they co-mingled with, it has kept the subclade mostly still within the Romany population (55%).

I'm just curious as to possibly finding it's origins within the Italian population & if anyone else carries this rare subclade.
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 04:16 Have you tried here?

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/italy/dna-results
Yes. You have to do the full mtDNA (or Y-DNA if paternal) workup before they will allow you in. Almost seems like kind of a "snooty" group, but unless (and until) I spend the $$$ on more testing I can't join.

Not so for the U3b projects. They're just taking their time (maybe the admins don't check the request list often). I'm still listed at both as "pending"...
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

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Too bad they are snooty. Doesn't make sense.

Well, at least you could scan what other's have reported.
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 20:21 Too bad they are snooty. Doesn't make sense.

Well, at least you could scan what other's have reported.
Maybe they aren't, but they are definitely picky about who they let in. They won't accept merely autosomal results (no matter the percentage). I'll wait it out for now.

Once I hear from the other 2 projects, I'll reassess. If they think the full sequence mtDNA test would be consequentially beneficial, then that would give me an incentive to do it (and open the door to the Italy project as well).

In the meanwhile I'll just sit here and ponder...
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by afecad »

MarcuccioV wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 15:57
Yes. You have to do the full mtDNA (or Y-DNA if paternal) workup before they will allow you in. Almost seems like kind of a "snooty" group, but unless (and until) I spend the $$$ on more testing I can't join.
I signed up for several groups that rejected me because I did not have the subclade haplogroup within the requirements or some other requirement and some did not even respond or add me at all. I would not say it's "snooty" they just don't want to add data that does not pertain to the parameters of the group goal or the group is DOA and not being maintained too well.

Y-DNA and mtDNA are often not much use for determining your estimated ancestry heritage in the traditional sense of what you see in the graphics on 23andme or etc.. You will get a list of countries for "Ancestral Origins", with a % of matches. Is that useful? Maybe?

Y-DNA at 111 markers told me my nearest ancestor with the same surname was a Gen 3 match. The only reason this popped up is that there is a specific surname project on FTDNA, when I search the entire database or by project, I see all the matches. Further you can see how you match this person at the STR and SNP level. So did it unlock my roadblocks on my paternal side, nope, it does show I'm related or we share one common ancestor, but the missing link I'm trying to solve prior to 1782 is still unknown. That's the roadblock for many, DNA alone cannot solve the link if nobody has a solid factual tree.
YDNA.PNG
As noted, I did full sequence mtDNA testing at FTDNA, it's not as clear as Y-DNA for starters and not of much use IMHO, at least for my haplogroup.

This is what I know I have:

mtDNA HVR1 Matches: 2365

mtDNA HVR2 Matches: 1

mtDNA Full Sequence Matches: 198

When I do "matches", I get one Gen 0, as noted I don't know this person or see a relation. You also don't get "TiP" as with Y-DNA to estimate an ancestor generation.

With most, the user has no tree listed or family surnames and this "0" could be recent like in the past 100 years or past 1000 for all I know? Some do list trees and surnames, but again there is often no way too connect the dots.

FTDNA does give you a world map showing matches and location of earliest known ancestor, but then again this could be wrong or incorrect and as well a long time ago as detailed below.

Reading the below explanation, makes full sequence mtDNA seem like a something of little use in Genealogy which is what I knew going in, but did it anyway.

Quoted from FTDNA:

Matching at the HVR1 level means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last fifty-two generations. That is about 1,300 years.

Matching on HVR1 and HVR2 means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last twenty-eight generations. That is about 700 years.

Matching exactly on the Mitochondrial DNA Full Sequence test brings your matches into more recent times. It means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last 5 generations. That is about 125 years.

-------

I read the full sequence match of 5 generations is optimistic, might be longer than that.

Since your maternal haplogroup is rare, you might find more value, mine (H1) is very common.
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

afecad wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 23:32
MarcuccioV wrote: 14 Apr 2021, 15:57
Yes. You have to do the full mtDNA (or Y-DNA if paternal) workup before they will allow you in. Almost seems like kind of a "snooty" group, but unless (and until) I spend the $$$ on more testing I can't join.
I signed up for several groups that rejected me because I did not have the subclade haplogroup within the requirements or some other requirement and some did not even respond or add me at all. I would not say it's "snooty" they just don't want to add data that does not pertain to the parameters of the group goal or the group is DOA and not being maintained too well.

Y-DNA and mtDNA are often not much use for determining your estimated ancestry heritage in the traditional sense of what you see in the graphics on 23andme or etc.. You will get a list of countries for "Ancestral Origins", with a % of matches. Is that useful? Maybe?

Y-DNA at 111 markers told me my nearest ancestor with the same surname was a Gen 3 match. The only reason this popped up is that there is a specific surname project on FTDNA, when I search the entire database or by project, I see all the matches. Further you can see how you match this person at the STR and SNP level. So did it unlock my roadblocks on my paternal side, nope, it does show I'm related or we share one common ancestor, but the missing link I'm trying to solve prior to 1782 is still unknown. That's the roadblock for many, DNA alone cannot solve the link if nobody has a solid factual tree.

YDNA.PNG

As noted, I did full sequence mtDNA testing at FTDNA, it's not as clear as Y-DNA for starters and not of much use IMHO, at least for my haplogroup.

This is what I know I have:

mtDNA HVR1 Matches: 2365

mtDNA HVR2 Matches: 1

mtDNA Full Sequence Matches: 198

When I do "matches", I get one Gen 0, as noted I don't know this person or see a relation. You also don't get "TiP" as with Y-DNA to estimate an ancestor generation.

With most, the user has no tree listed or family surnames and this "0" could be recent like in the past 100 years or past 1000 for all I know? Some do list trees and surnames, but again there is often no way too connect the dots.

FTDNA does give you a world map showing matches and location of earliest known ancestor, but then again this could be wrong or incorrect and as well a long time ago as detailed below.

Reading the below explanation, makes full sequence mtDNA seem like a something of little use in Genealogy which is what I knew going in, but did it anyway.

Quoted from FTDNA:

Matching at the HVR1 level means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last fifty-two generations. That is about 1,300 years.

Matching on HVR1 and HVR2 means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last twenty-eight generations. That is about 700 years.

Matching exactly on the Mitochondrial DNA Full Sequence test brings your matches into more recent times. It means that you have a 50% chance of sharing a common maternal ancestor within the last 5 generations. That is about 125 years.

-------

I read the full sequence match of 5 generations is optimistic, might be longer than that.

Since your maternal haplogroup is rare, you might find more value, mine (H1) is very common.
Your last sentence sums it up more for me. Since it's an extremely rare subclade, I'm hoping more to figure out origin rather than necessarily finding matches. If I can see a list of surnames, it may help somewhat as there are a limited # of family names in my grandparent's town and I can only go back to my maternal-line 3GG (according to documented civil records on Antenati). Since her maiden surname is obviously her father's, I don't have any info (yet) on her mother's maiden name.

If I see surnames I recognize, it might give me some ancestor clues.

As for the "snootiness", perhaps a severe term, but it seems a bit elitist to reject anyone that has not done "extra" tests even if they have Italian autosomal AND documented information (including growing up with Italian family members). I guess it's just me.
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by afecad »

I don't remember which one of the two I sent you that you were not aware of, but it say's you don't need full sequence mtDNA for this one:

"Although it is not mandatory for this Project that you have completed a full mtDNA test, it will certainly be of benefit to you, and to the group, for you to compete the mtDNA Full Mitochondrial Sequence (FMS) if you have not already done so. But you are welcome to be in the group in any case - provided you have a confirmed result as U3b, U3b1, or U3b1"

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/um ... background

Well both of those groups I shared with you don't have a lot of members, one or the other might be inactive due to this and the person managing it is not too interested in taking care of it, I ran into this on several groups.

There is another one, info is public and can be searched, just change the page size to view more select next page at the bottom.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... =mtresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mt ... background

You can also use this free haplogroup map and select which subclade you are, it's possible if you go with mtDNA full sequence your U3b might drop to a subclade, mine did not from 23andme to FTDNA full sequence mtDNA, was thinking I might be a subclade of H1 but that wasn't the case.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... tion=mtmap
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

afecad wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 02:19 I don't remember which one of the two I sent you that you were not aware of, but it say's you don't need full sequence mtDNA for this one:

"Although it is not mandatory for this Project that you have completed a full mtDNA test, it will certainly be of benefit to you, and to the group, for you to compete the mtDNA Full Mitochondrial Sequence (FMS) if you have not already done so. But you are welcome to be in the group in any case - provided you have a confirmed result as U3b, U3b1, or U3b1"

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/um ... background

Well both of those groups I shared with you don't have a lot of members, one or the other might be inactive due to this and the person managing it is not too interested in taking care of it, I ran into this on several groups.

There is another one, info is public and can be searched, just change the page size to view more select next page at the bottom.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... =mtresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mt ... background

You can also use this free haplogroup map and select which subclade you are, it's possible if you go with mtDNA full sequence your U3b might drop to a subclade, mine did not from 23andme to FTDNA full sequence mtDNA, was thinking I might be a subclade of H1 but that wasn't the case.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... tion=mtmap
I knew of the U3b group, but not the Romani. Pending for both. The third U3 project requires an FTDNA test to join. The maps are interesting, many of the locations are areas that match my ethnic results...
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by MarcuccioV »

afecad wrote: 15 Apr 2021, 02:19 I don't remember which one of the two I sent you that you were not aware of, but it say's you don't need full sequence mtDNA for this one:

"Although it is not mandatory for this Project that you have completed a full mtDNA test, it will certainly be of benefit to you, and to the group, for you to compete the mtDNA Full Mitochondrial Sequence (FMS) if you have not already done so. But you are welcome to be in the group in any case - provided you have a confirmed result as U3b, U3b1, or U3b1"

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/um ... background

Well both of those groups I shared with you don't have a lot of members, one or the other might be inactive due to this and the person managing it is not too interested in taking care of it, I ran into this on several groups.

There is another one, info is public and can be searched, just change the page size to view more select next page at the bottom.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... =mtresults

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/mt ... background

You can also use this free haplogroup map and select which subclade you are, it's possible if you go with mtDNA full sequence your U3b might drop to a subclade, mine did not from 23andme to FTDNA full sequence mtDNA, was thinking I might be a subclade of H1 but that wasn't the case.

https://www.familytreedna.com/public/mt ... tion=mtmap
I received an "denial" from the Romani DNA group. Reason given was they only accept invitees. Why then they have a "Join" button on their home page is a mystery to me. Still awaiting acceptance into the "Uma's" project.
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Re: U3b mtDNA subclade

Post by afecad »

Did you email the administrators or co-admin?

You can email them directly, click on the names.

https://www.familytreedna.com/groups/ro ... background
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