Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

Genetic genealogy is the application of genetics to traditional genealogy. Genetic genealogy involves the use of genealogical DNA testing to determine the level and type of the genetic relationship between individuals.
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MarcuccioV
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 00:38 Sounds like there could be a hidden Italian or an error in DNA classification.

The latter is less likely if you're getting the same results from different DNA companies.

Who is the closest paternal relative who also has been tested?

What do you mean by "matrices"? Sounds like a guard for a female prisoner.
"Matrices" is plural for "Matrix" (but I like your logic, LOL). :wink:

I tried yet again to see if I could find a link. Every time I find a DNA match with Italian heritage (other than those I've clearly connected to my maternal side, which is only a handful) I cannot find ANY common ancestor to which I can connect the dots to (on either side). So frustrating, as there are lots of them (again, too many for me to consider simply "coincidence"). ANY of them (or none of them, I suppose) could be my missing link.

There was one match (I believe about 15cM) that was 100% Italian/Med. NO ancestral surname matches NOR ancestral locations I could match up. I can only guess related on my mother's side, but how I have no clue.

Closest 2 Paternal DNA matches are the 2 first cousins (brothers) I noted in posts above. Our ethnicities vary considerably between us, even between the 2 brothers. Their dad was not olivine like my dad's 2 younger brothers, but favored the Irish branch (my father's maternal GF).

Just to throw gasoline onto the roaring fire (as I like to do), of all the DNA matches that I can (by process of elimination) tie to my paternal side, the most common ethnicity aside from the UK/NW Eur/Germanic/ (and to a much lesser extent) French is, you guessed it, Italian...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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I suppose the two paternal 1st cousins come from your father's sister as opposed to his brother?
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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darkerhorse wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 04:14 I suppose the two paternal 1st cousins come from your father's sister as opposed to his brother?
They are sons of his older brother.

My dad had only brothers (4). He was #2. #1 & #5 favored the Irish branch with light hair/eyes & skin. #2 (my dad), #3 & #4 were dark haired (#3 &4 wavy-curly), nearly black-eyed (as am I) & olive-skinned. To see them together, there are slight similarities but they all look very different from one another.

#4 looked the most like his father, my dad (#2) looked the most like his mother. IMHO, NONE of them look like their paternal grandfather. But the DNA matches.

My DNA matches (1st cousins, 1st's-once removed, etc) clearly show they are all legit. There are a few first names here & there (deeper in the tree) that could possibly indicate adopted Italian children (especially females), but so far I can't prove nor disprove any such situation...
Mark

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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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I also keep stumbling over my 2GGf Frank Morris. I have added parents Isaac Morris and Louisa Richardson (my 3GG's) which appear in multiple records. They had about 6 children. Yet I ONLY have DNA matches through Frank (by my GGm, of course, and another daughter of Frank's, my GGa Pearl Morris). I have NO DNA matches to Isaac, Louisa or ANY of their other children. Strange. Frank's wife gives me DNA matches several gens back.

Could Frank be the adoptee/foundling..? So far he's the best possibility... And Frank could be a diminutive of Francesco...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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I have checked my Ancestry matches for Frank -- there are 2 whose trees I can access (another has a private tree). Both are one gen further removed than I. All the other matches where the surname "Morris" appears are coincidental (different ancestral locations -- either different states or countries at around the same date ranges).

The 2 that do match do not show any Med ethnicity, but there could be 3 reasons for that -- first, Ancestry's Italian matrix is weak (small population group); they are a gen removed so that would weaken it by 50% (at least); and due to random replication they simply may not have inherited any of it (the more I read about the subject, the more plausible this becomes).

I'm trying not to leave any stones unturned. Definitive proof remains elusive...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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Do your male paternal 1st cousins have the same Y haplogroup as you?
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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darkerhorse wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 16:47 Do your male paternal 1st cousins have the same Y haplogroup as you?
I don't know as one tested through Ancestry and the other through MyHeritage and they don't list Y haplogroups. I have no doubt that they are R-Z19's as they are the ONLY DNA matches directly connected to my Y-line.

The only other match with my surname is a low cM match (he is the RM-269). He could be an adoptee, a child of a previous marriage who took his stepfather's name, an unmarried mother who kept her maiden name, any number of scenarios that could explain his different Y-group...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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Just for the heck of it -- I ran one of the Frank Morris' matches through the GEDmatch matrix & oracle. Although Ancestry shows no Med for her, GEDmatch Eurogenes oracle puts her most likely 3-population estimate as 25% South Italian. Other oracles for her show Greek Thessalonian. Sounds like Med to me.

THAT is why I don't lean very heavily on the Ancestry ethnic matrix...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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MarcuccioV wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 07:30 I also keep stumbling over my 2GGf Frank Morris. I have added parents Isaac Morris and Louisa Richardson (my 3GG's) which appear in multiple records. They had about 6 children. Yet I ONLY have DNA matches through Frank (by my GGm, of course, and another daughter of Frank's, my GGa Pearl Morris). I have NO DNA matches to Isaac, Louisa or ANY of their other children. Strange. Frank's wife gives me DNA matches several gens back.

Could Frank be the adoptee/foundling..? So far he's the best possibility... And Frank could be a diminutive of Francesco...
Could be because the descendants of Frank's siblings are your distant relatives, not in your direct line.

I also think lack of DNA testing is an issue, in general. In my family, none of my siblings or 1st cousins or any of their direct ancestors or descendants have ever had DNA tests. That covers a lot of my extended family being untested. No DNA matches would be found.
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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I don't know much about DNA testing but I think you should confirm, not assume, the haplogroup of your paternal 1st cousins.

Since they've already provided a DNA sample would either testing company determine Y haplogroup for a small up-charge?

Their Y haplogroup seems like low hanging fruit to me, which might tell you a lot.
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

Post by MarcuccioV »

darkerhorse wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 20:24
Could be because the descendants of Frank's siblings are your distant relatives, not in your direct line.
Your theory could hold water EXCEPT:

I have many other DNA matches that are descendants of siblings of my direct line (most often, that's what they are and NOT on my direct line).

Also, as I noted above, Frank's wife (Sarah Anna Reichard -- Alsatian/German ethnicity by paper trail) gives me DNA matches back to her GG's and siblings along the way.

Yet I have only matches to Frank and HIS decendants. I'm not closing the book on this yet.
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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darkerhorse wrote: 06 Jul 2021, 20:31 I don't know much about DNA testing but I think you should confirm, not assume, the haplogroup of your paternal 1st cousins.

Since they've already provided a DNA sample would either testing company determine Y haplogroup for a small up-charge?

Their Y haplogroup seems like low hanging fruit to me, which might tell you a lot.
Since they are the only matches that share my surname (except for the distant relative that I already described), I think it's moot. We are first cousins both by DNA & paper trail (and I've known or known OF them all my life).

The RM-269 matches all appear to have come through the central branches of the paternal tree. There is no way to test for those. I doubt the Y-line is the break. It's elsewhere (and I still think it's Frank)...
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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When was Isaac Morris born?
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

Post by darkerhorse »

Adelaide is recorded as white. What do you think of her looks?
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Re: Haplogroup non-matches -- both Y-DNA and mtDNA

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darkerhorse wrote: 07 Jul 2021, 00:43 When was Isaac Morris born?
1799. In NY state, but I'm not sure where. Frank is indicated as born near Erie, PA, in 1842.
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